00:00:00:00 00:00:04:18
The podcast series Ensemble / All Together
is a corporate content produced by

00:00:04:18 00:00:07:26
CBC & Radio-Canada Media Solutions,
Revenue Group.

00:00:07:26 00:00:10:20
The views and opinions
expressed in this podcast

00:00:10:20 00:00:13:12
are those of the speakers
and do not necessarily

00:00:13:12 00:00:17:20
reflect the views or positions
of CBC & Radio-Canada Media Solutions.

00:00:18:11 00:00:22:10
Welcome to our second
CBC English episode

00:00:22:10 00:00:24:15
of Ensemble / All Together,

00:00:24:15 00:00:27:19
a bilingual podcast series
where we aim to share,

00:00:27:19 00:00:31:11
discuss and facilitate
authentic conversations

00:00:31:11 00:00:34:19
in the space of DEI
in the media industry

00:00:34:19 00:00:36:12
from multiple perspectives,

00:00:36:12 00:00:39:17
proudly brought to you
by the Media Solutions team

00:00:39:17 00:00:41:29
at CBC and Radio-Canada.

00:00:41:29 00:00:44:02
My name is Julia Nethersole

00:00:44:02 00:00:46:10
and I will be your host
for this episode

00:00:46:10 00:00:50:21
recorded on the unceded
Indigenous territory of Tkaronto,

00:00:50:21 00:00:52:11
also known as Toronto.

00:00:52:11 00:00:56:03
I identify as a hetero-cisgender woman.

00:00:56:03 00:00:59:03
I am an inhabitant of treaty land
in Canada

00:00:59:03 00:01:02:16
and my parents immigrated here
when they were both very young.

00:01:02:16 00:01:06:09
My cultural background is half-Indian
and half-Jamaican.

00:01:06:09 00:01:10:29
It is my absolute pleasure
to introduce our two guests today,

00:01:10:29 00:01:15:06
Justine Fung, E&I Project Lead
for Unscripted Content

00:01:15:06 00:01:17:01
at CBC Television,

00:01:17:01 00:01:20:02
and Nic Meloney,
Wolastoqi/Canadian

00:01:20:02 00:01:22:20
Production Executive
at CBC Unscripted.

00:01:23:27 00:01:25:28
Hi Nic, hi Justine.

00:01:25:28 00:01:29:25
It is such a pleasure
to have both of you here today.

00:01:29:25 00:01:31:13
Thank you for being here.

00:01:31:13 00:01:33:00
Thank you for the invite, Julia.

00:01:33:00 00:01:35:12
It's great to be here

00:01:35:12 00:01:37:19
and for you guys to create
the space for us to chat.

00:01:37:19 00:01:38:28
Yeah, absolutely,

00:01:38:28 00:01:40:21
I've been looking forward
to this conversation,

00:01:40:21 00:01:42:05
so thank you for having us.

00:01:42:05 00:01:47:02
I would love to know a little bit more
about who you are

00:01:47:02 00:01:51:10
and your story through the lens
of your cultural heritage.

00:01:51:10 00:01:54:08
So I am a Hong Kong immigrant

00:01:54:08 00:01:58:11
and at a very young age,
I moved to Canada with my family,

00:01:58:11 00:02:02:05
first to Winnipeg
and then to Toronto.

00:02:02:05 00:02:06:27
And yeah, growing up
in Winnipeg, Manitoba,

00:02:06:27 00:02:10:10
I was probably the only Chinese kid
in my neighbourhood,

00:02:10:10 00:02:13:05
although we grew up in a very
multicultural neighbourhood,

00:02:13:05 00:02:15:27
a neighbourhood with a lot
of immigrants,

00:02:16:14 00:02:19:21
and at a young age,
learned to try to be Canadian.

00:02:19:21 00:02:22:29
The idea of assimilation
was kind of embedded in me

00:02:22:29 00:02:25:00
as we lived in Winnipeg.

00:02:25:00 00:02:29:08
And then in my high school years,
we moved to Toronto,

00:02:29:08 00:02:31:08
and it was a complete culture shock.

00:02:31:08 00:02:35:02
We moved to Scarborough,
which was extremely Asian.

00:02:35:02 00:02:37:22
And I've got to say,
I had a bit of a cultural identity,

00:02:37:22 00:02:41:05
because I didn't know
who I should be.

00:02:41:05 00:02:44:15
So I struggled with a lot of that,
most of my life.

00:02:44:15 00:02:46:00
Like, who am I?

00:02:46:00 00:02:48:14
What is it to be
the authentic me, really?

00:02:49:03 00:02:53:01
So really still exploring that
in my adulthood, to be honest.

00:02:53:01 00:02:54:21
Thank you for sharing that.

00:02:54:21 00:02:59:20
I think that that is such
a tender part of the experience

00:02:59:20 00:03:03:05
of being an immigrant
and feeling part of two worlds.

00:03:03:21 00:03:05:21
Nic, I would love to hear from you,

00:03:05:21 00:03:10:00
your story, through the lens
of your cultural heritage.

00:03:10:00 00:03:12:07
So I'm a mixed guy.

00:03:12:07 00:03:17:18
I think that there are varying
degrees of indigeneity.

00:03:18:07 00:03:21:09
I'm a mixed guy,
meaning that my mother

00:03:21:09 00:03:23:11
is a First Nations woman.

00:03:24:16 00:03:28:14
She's from the nation known
as the Wolastoqiyik,

00:03:29:04 00:03:32:03
the people of the beautiful
and bountiful river,

00:03:32:03 00:03:35:14
as it's been translated in English.

00:03:35:29 00:03:39:08
On my father's side,
I'm of Scottish and Irish descent.

00:03:39:08 00:03:43:11
My family settled in Cape Breton Island,

00:03:43:11 00:03:45:02
on Cape Breton Island.

00:03:45:02 00:03:47:06
The first descendant that I know of

00:03:47:06 00:03:50:09
was one of the Ellis Island immigrants,

00:03:50:09 00:03:54:03
came up through New York
and eventually made it to Nova Scotia.

00:03:54:17 00:03:56:20
They settled in North Sidney,

00:03:56:20 00:03:59:17
at a place that's now known
as Meloney's Creek.

00:04:00:09 00:04:02:17
I grew up in North Sidney,

00:04:02:17 00:04:05:06
in a house that used to be
an apartment building

00:04:05:06 00:04:08:19
that housed my family members,
my great-grandmother.

00:04:09:01 00:04:13:28
I know many, many different details
about my Irish and Scottish ancestors

00:04:13:28 00:04:18:20
and indicative of being
a First Nations person in Canada,

00:04:18:20 00:04:21:16
I know very little about my ancestors

00:04:21:16 00:04:25:23
on the Wolastoqi or Maliseet side.

00:04:26:15 00:04:31:03
I'm about as First Nations
as I possibly could be

00:04:31:03 00:04:33:08
and I'm about as White
as I possibly could be,

00:04:33:08 00:04:37:23
being two different lineages all in one.

00:04:37:23 00:04:40:27
Both of my mother's parents
are First Nations people

00:04:40:27 00:04:44:13
and both of my dad's parents
are White people,

00:04:44:13 00:04:46:21
so I'm just, like,
square in the middle,

00:04:46:21 00:04:48:29
as are my two sisters.

00:04:48:29 00:04:53:18
So yeah, the culture extends beyond,
I think, nationhood.

00:04:53:18 00:04:57:20
So that's kind of me in
probably a long-winded nutshell.

00:04:58:16 00:05:01:23
I'm curious to know,
for both of you,

00:05:01:23 00:05:06:11
what your relationship is
to your cultural identity now,

00:05:06:11 00:05:07:28
and how it's evolved.

00:05:07:28 00:05:11:17
You know, I can share for myself.

00:05:11:17 00:05:15:22
Growing up, I lived in
predominantly White spaces,

00:05:15:22 00:05:18:03
went to school in
predominantly White spaces,

00:05:18:03 00:05:21:14
and so I always automatically felt other,

00:05:21:26 00:05:27:06
just by being somebody
that had brown skin.

00:05:27:06 00:05:31:15
And so I think that
my way of relating to that

00:05:31:15 00:05:35:16
when I was younger was similar,
a little bit, to what you shared,

00:05:35:16 00:05:37:29
Justine, was trying to assimilate,

00:05:37:29 00:05:40:04
and I'm curious to know

00:05:40:04 00:05:42:27
what that relationship
has looked like for both of you.

00:05:42:27 00:05:44:00
Oh, well...

00:05:47:13 00:05:50:27
I think back when I was a teenager,

00:05:51:12 00:05:53:24
as a Chinese youth,

00:05:53:24 00:05:55:29
and I will say,
there are certain things

00:05:55:29 00:05:58:00
that I've done in the past
that I'm, like:

00:05:58:00 00:05:59:25
Oh my God, why did I do that?

00:06:00:13 00:06:02:24
But I would pretend
not to speak Chinese

00:06:02:24 00:06:05:05
to people who come up to me
and speak Chinese.

00:06:05:05 00:06:08:18
I think there's a lot of stories
of bringing Chinese food to the lunchroom

00:06:08:18 00:06:11:01
and oh my God, I'm not bringing noodles!

00:06:11:01 00:06:14:23
And I would rather hide my noodles
than to eat my lunch.

00:06:14:23 00:06:16:14
Those are familiar stories,

00:06:16:14 00:06:19:26
and so, yeah,
I wanted to be Canadian.

00:06:19:26 00:06:21:29
But what is the definition
of Canadian, right?

00:06:21:29 00:06:23:17
Speaking perfect English,

00:06:24:10 00:06:26:14
eating peanut butter and jelly sandwich,

00:06:27:01 00:06:28:01
right?

00:06:28:01 00:06:31:12
And just hiding as much
of my Chineseness as possible.

00:06:32:07 00:06:36:03
It's tough because you don't really
understand why you do that.

00:06:36:03 00:06:38:02
Or at least I didn't,
when I was young.

00:06:38:02 00:06:40:20
But it was just this thing
that you aspire to.

00:06:40:20 00:06:43:22
And I think my perspective
changed a lot when I moved

00:06:43:22 00:06:47:27
to Hong Kong and Tokyo to work
in my adulthood.

00:06:48:10 00:06:50:28
I became more comfortable
with who I was

00:06:50:28 00:06:53:09
because I was speaking the language,

00:06:53:09 00:06:55:09
I was meeting more Asian people,

00:06:55:09 00:06:58:00
I was meeting a lot of Asian people
who were like me,

00:06:58:00 00:07:00:29
who grew up in the UK
or Australia,

00:07:00:29 00:07:02:09
we had a lot of stories.

00:07:02:24 00:07:04:27
It was OK to be who we are.

00:07:05:10 00:07:08:06
And so now coming back
to Toronto,

00:07:08:06 00:07:10:23
you know, I have kids,
I have mixed kids,

00:07:10:23 00:07:12:10
and it's that conversation
that's like,

00:07:12:10 00:07:14:28
how do I teach my kids to be Chinese?

00:07:15:13 00:07:17:18
But also, they're British,

00:07:17:18 00:07:20:01
and being comfortable
in being both cultures.

00:07:20:01 00:07:21:24
And so that's kind of like...

00:07:21:24 00:07:23:16
This is where I'm at now, it's like,

00:07:23:16 00:07:25:27
I feel comfortable with me
being Chinese,

00:07:25:27 00:07:27:28
I'm OK with who I am,

00:07:27:28 00:07:29:20
and now I'm teaching that to my kids.

00:07:30:11 00:07:31:28
That's such a beautiful thing

00:07:31:28 00:07:35:05
that you're almost able
to heal that part of you

00:07:35:17 00:07:37:13
through this relationship with your kids

00:07:37:13 00:07:40:22
and what you're able
to cultivate with them.

00:07:40:22 00:07:43:00
That's such a beautiful legacy, I think.

00:07:43:25 00:07:45:18
Nic, what would you say?

00:07:45:18 00:07:50:11
How has your relationship
to your cultural identity evolved?

00:07:50:11 00:07:51:22
Yeah, in a very similar way.

00:07:51:22 00:07:54:15
I think that Justine touched on

00:07:54:15 00:07:56:22
a really critical part to it,

00:07:56:22 00:07:59:18
which is, how it is
that you identify as a youth,

00:07:59:18 00:08:02:10
and how it is that you identify
as an adult,

00:08:02:10 00:08:06:25
because the conditions in which
you are living in the world,

00:08:06:25 00:08:11:27
they change your internal mind,
your internal self looking out

00:08:11:27 00:08:16:03
develops with experience
and education and all of those things,

00:08:16:03 00:08:19:13
but then also, the external,
the outside changes too.

00:08:19:13 00:08:22:07
Socially, Canada is a very different place

00:08:22:07 00:08:26:05
than when even I was in high school,

00:08:26:05 00:08:28:07
versus where it is that we are today.

00:08:28:22 00:08:30:17
Five, six years ago,

00:08:30:17 00:08:32:18
I think that we're in
a very different place,

00:08:32:18 00:08:35:01
so I would look at it the exact same way.

00:08:35:01 00:08:36:21
When I was a kid,

00:08:36:21 00:08:40:17
I would usually notice the difference
between my two families,

00:08:40:17 00:08:41:28
and I'm talking, like, really young,

00:08:41:28 00:08:44:07
and I was a brat,

00:08:44:07 00:08:47:11
or I was, you know,
when you're a child,

00:08:47:11 00:08:49:05
and your parents are carting you around

00:08:49:05 00:08:51:02
to family events,
those sort of things.

00:08:51:24 00:08:55:02
The family events
with the White side of my family

00:08:55:02 00:08:59:00
were joyous and happy and beautiful

00:08:59:00 00:09:00:18
and kids played,

00:09:00:18 00:09:03:28
and we had tons of food,

00:09:03:28 00:09:07:08
and toys, and all of these things.

00:09:07:20 00:09:10:19
We had property to go to,

00:09:10:19 00:09:14:01
we had privacy,
all of these different components.

00:09:14:01 00:09:17:04
But when I was hanging out
with the First Nations

00:09:17:04 00:09:18:22
or Maliseet side of my family,

00:09:19:05 00:09:21:05
I experienced the same things:

00:09:21:05 00:09:23:19
joy, kids playing, food,

00:09:23:19 00:09:25:22
all of these things.

00:09:26:06 00:09:29:07
All those amazing family components.

00:09:29:07 00:09:32:11
But the conditions were
a little different.

00:09:32:11 00:09:34:22
We didn't have as much property,

00:09:34:22 00:09:37:07
our homes weren't as nice,
the places...

00:09:37:07 00:09:41:08
We went and stayed at a hotel
rather than staying at different places.

00:09:41:08 00:09:44:05
My parents were a little bit
more responsible

00:09:44:05 00:09:47:28
for maybe providing food,
something along those lines.

00:09:48:13 00:09:52:25
So, I had these varied two
wonderful experiences as a kid,

00:09:52:25 00:09:55:19
with a ton of privilege
on both sides of things,

00:09:55:19 00:09:57:25
but I at least noticed, as a kid,

00:09:57:25 00:10:00:22
that there were very different
economic situations

00:10:00:22 00:10:03:11
between the White side of my family
and the First Nations side.

00:10:04:06 00:10:07:10
And it's about as deep as I got
when I was a kid,

00:10:07:10 00:10:09:20
thinking about indigeneity.

00:10:10:02 00:10:15:11
It wasn't until I started exploring
my identity as a human being

00:10:15:11 00:10:18:07
that I started understanding
indigineity, I think.

00:10:18:07 00:10:19:26
In high school,

00:10:21:12 00:10:23:08
because I was going to high school

00:10:23:08 00:10:27:08
away from where the majority
of Wolastoqi or Maliseet people

00:10:27:08 00:10:28:12
were in New Brunswick,

00:10:28:12 00:10:31:06
I was going to high school
in city Nova Scotia.

00:10:31:06 00:10:33:16
It was a lot more Mi'kmaq around us,

00:10:33:16 00:10:35:03
and because I was White-passing,

00:10:35:03 00:10:38:08
and the Mi'kmaq kids were,
a lot of them were White-passing too,

00:10:38:08 00:10:40:27
but a bunch of them were Brown,

00:10:40:27 00:10:43:04
I was still alienated from them,

00:10:43:04 00:10:45:22
I was protected from any
of the racism,

00:10:45:22 00:10:49:06
or pestering or bullying
that they would receive,

00:10:49:21 00:10:51:23
and oftentimes,

00:10:52:06 00:10:56:29
I took part in making fun
of Indigenous peoples.

00:10:56:29 00:10:59:16
I was an adolescent,

00:10:59:16 00:11:01:15
I was a little dummy.

00:11:01:15 00:11:04:21
Because I knew that I was Indigenous,

00:11:04:21 00:11:06:02
and because my friends were like...

00:11:06:02 00:11:09:15
My nickname, back in high school,
was Tonto for a little while,

00:11:09:15 00:11:11:14
and I didn't mind any of that,

00:11:11:14 00:11:13:08
because I thought it was funny and cute.

00:11:13:08 00:11:14:29
And then I became an adult

00:11:16:06 00:11:18:17
and the world changed around me,

00:11:18:17 00:11:23:06
and through my work,
I started focusing more heavily

00:11:23:06 00:11:26:16
on what it means to be Indigenous,

00:11:26:16 00:11:29:24
and a lack of equality,

00:11:29:24 00:11:32:01
a lack of justice,

00:11:32:01 00:11:34:27
a lack of self-determination.

00:11:34:27 00:11:38:10
All of those things became my passion

00:11:38:10 00:11:40:08
and what I was doing for work.

00:11:40:08 00:11:42:26
So it significantly changed how it is

00:11:42:26 00:11:44:28
that I began to identify.

00:11:44:28 00:11:47:03
I became much more proud,

00:11:47:03 00:11:52:27
I spent way more time exploring
the history of my own immediate family,

00:11:52:27 00:11:55:12
and our ancestors,
my aunts and uncles,

00:11:55:12 00:11:56:20
my grandparents.

00:11:57:05 00:11:59:19
I started examining my mother's past.

00:12:00:01 00:12:01:22
This was all kind of at the same time

00:12:01:22 00:12:07:01
when non-Indigenous North America
started to wake up

00:12:07:01 00:12:10:25
and understand what indigeneity means.

00:12:12:01 00:12:15:13
It certainly has involved
between youth and adult.

00:12:15:13 00:12:17:28
One anecdote that I'll share is that

00:12:17:28 00:12:21:25
I called my sisters and I
Cafeteria Natives,

00:12:23:03 00:12:28:02
because we were able to pick and choose
which parts of our culture,

00:12:28:02 00:12:30:27
our lineage, we identified with.

00:12:30:27 00:12:35:12
And it's an interesting analogy
because the cafeteria menu,

00:12:35:12 00:12:39:18
the selection that I had
when I was 15,

00:12:40:04 00:12:42:22
is now a lot bigger.

00:12:42:22 00:12:44:11
There's a lot more nuance,

00:12:44:11 00:12:46:24
there are more things that I understand,

00:12:46:24 00:12:49:00
I'm able to be a lot more specific,

00:12:49:00 00:12:51:29
I have a much more honest

00:12:51:29 00:12:58:10
and truthful and nuanced identity
as a First Nations man.

00:13:01:05 00:13:04:05
I think Justine has a quick
reflection on that too.

00:13:04:05 00:13:07:24
I just want to say,
Nic said the word "proud"

00:13:07:24 00:13:13:10
and I think that's the word
where I felt ashamed when I was younger,

00:13:13:10 00:13:14:21
and now I'm proud.

00:13:15:15 00:13:16:14
That's beautiful.

00:13:16:14 00:13:22:02
And I think that all three of us
had a similar trajectory in that way,

00:13:22:02 00:13:25:00
with our lived experience,

00:13:25:14 00:13:30:09
and our kind of relating
to our cultural identity.

00:13:30:09 00:13:32:19
It's kind of that evolution from...

00:13:33:02 00:13:36:28
Yeah, not being something,
whether it was from outright shame,

00:13:36:28 00:13:39:16
or just not fully identifying with it,

00:13:39:16 00:13:41:20
or not fully being connected to it,

00:13:41:20 00:13:45:09
to evolving into this place of ownership

00:13:45:09 00:13:49:01
and knowing that it's part of who you are

00:13:49:01 00:13:51:00
and it's something that you have roots in,

00:13:51:00 00:13:53:21
that connects you and carries forward.

00:13:54:06 00:13:56:00
I'm curious to know

00:13:56:00 00:14:00:01
how your families
and communities and heritage

00:14:00:15 00:14:05:05
have shaped your education
and personal career path,

00:14:05:05 00:14:06:16
up to this point.

00:14:06:16 00:14:08:08
I alluded to it a little bit

00:14:09:07 00:14:11:26
in how it shaped my identity,

00:14:11:26 00:14:13:24
how my work shaped my identity.

00:14:13:24 00:14:16:01
My identity shaped my work

00:14:16:14 00:14:19:11
in all of the most surprising ways.

00:14:20:00 00:14:24:04
I started at a time working
in Indigenous journalism

00:14:24:22 00:14:31:05
when things were just beginning
to really take off, I believe.

00:14:31:05 00:14:34:24
I mean, Indigenous journalism
has existed for decades

00:14:34:24 00:14:36:08
and decades and decades.

00:14:36:08 00:14:39:22
There have been Indigenous reporters

00:14:39:22 00:14:42:21
and investigative journalists
and hosts and talent

00:14:42:21 00:14:45:21
all over the place for CBC

00:14:45:21 00:14:48:28
and for so many other
different organizations,

00:14:48:28 00:14:53:20
but I began at a time when
there was at least resources,

00:14:53:20 00:14:56:00
there was money shifting towards it.

00:14:56:00 00:14:58:16
So I of course saw an opportunity,

00:14:58:16 00:15:02:10
an employment opportunity,
for me to be able to focus on

00:15:02:25 00:15:05:09
Indigenous journalism,
stories that were coming

00:15:05:09 00:15:09:15
from Indigenous communities
directed towards an Indigenous audience.

00:15:09:27 00:15:15:25
And I just wanted to give
a voice to the voiceless,

00:15:15:25 00:15:20:03
and all of those rosy,
rainbow journalism things.

00:15:21:05 00:15:25:02
So I was already kind of working
in that area, or that arena,

00:15:25:02 00:15:28:26
trying to develop an expertise
in how to report

00:15:28:26 00:15:30:25
from marginalized communities,

00:15:31:12 00:15:34:13
and it completely changed my life.

00:15:34:13 00:15:38:15
I came in at a time
where I saw enough of the gaps

00:15:38:15 00:15:40:18
within our organization,

00:15:40:18 00:15:42:19
that I knew, fundamentally,

00:15:42:19 00:15:44:29
I knew as a human being,

00:15:45:13 00:15:47:12
that needed to be addressed.

00:15:48:02 00:15:49:24
I focused on my news.

00:15:49:24 00:15:55:14
I was not focused on anything related
to Equity and Diversity and Inclusion.

00:15:55:14 00:15:57:20
I'd bet you I rarely thought of them

00:15:57:20 00:16:00:23
unless they came up
in a mandatory course

00:16:00:23 00:16:01:25
when I was a reporter.

00:16:02:14 00:16:07:15
And yeah, over the past
seven years at CBC,

00:16:07:15 00:16:12:18
it's now become probably
my largest objective.

00:16:12:18 00:16:15:28
I think that my identity
as a mixed race person

00:16:15:28 00:16:21:21
kind of with an arms-length view
to what it was,

00:16:22:15 00:16:27:18
what it meant to be a First Nations
person in Canada right now,

00:16:28:05 00:16:32:21
because I was able to pick and choose
what parts I identified by,

00:16:33:04 00:16:36:09
I could be a secret Indian,
if I wanted to be.

00:16:36:09 00:16:37:19
I could be a secret Native,

00:16:37:19 00:16:43:25
I could go in there
strictly as a reporter,

00:16:43:25 00:16:46:25
as a White person and inquire about

00:16:46:25 00:16:51:10
any particular line of cultural integrity

00:16:51:10 00:16:53:24
or anything related to Indigenous issues

00:16:53:24 00:16:57:15
and be met with more graciousness

00:16:57:15 00:16:59:06
because I looked White.

00:16:59:06 00:17:03:14
So all of those life experiences
kind of have allowed me

00:17:03:14 00:17:07:02
to build a toolkit
as a stopgap,

00:17:07:02 00:17:08:05
as a bridge.

00:17:08:05 00:17:10:18
It's made me very diplomatic.

00:17:10:18 00:17:12:19
It's made me very analytical.

00:17:13:11 00:17:19:06
And it's because I still suffer
some shame or guilt

00:17:19:06 00:17:23:07
around how it is that I identified
as a youth,

00:17:23:21 00:17:27:07
not being a First Nations man,
it's not how I identified.

00:17:27:19 00:17:29:06
Because I've got shame or guilt,

00:17:29:06 00:17:31:28
I think that I try even harder.

00:17:33:06 00:17:34:12
Thank you.

00:17:34:12 00:17:38:00
You've been somebody that has
been telling stories

00:17:38:00 00:17:39:16
for the better part of your career,

00:17:39:16 00:17:42:02
both in front of
and behind the camera,

00:17:42:18 00:17:45:26
as well as working
on committees and projects

00:17:45:26 00:17:48:22
like the National Indigenous Strategy.

00:17:49:13 00:17:52:02
I'm curious to know,
if you were to sum it up,

00:17:52:02 00:17:55:25
what you would say
your responsibility is,

00:17:55:25 00:17:59:24
as a Wolastoqi Canadian in these roles.

00:17:59:24 00:18:03:16
I think my responsibility is

00:18:04:26 00:18:08:23
to be honest and
to show others the truth.

00:18:09:11 00:18:14:28
One of the things that I've done
in the EDI realm for CBC

00:18:14:28 00:18:20:11
is become a facilitator
for a workshop

00:18:20:11 00:18:23:01
known as Reporting
in Indigenous Communities.

00:18:23:01 00:18:27:18
And it's given me access
to hundreds of colleagues

00:18:27:18 00:18:29:09
across the country,

00:18:29:09 00:18:33:24
French and English,
from all ethnic backgrounds,

00:18:33:24 00:18:36:12
from all walks of life,

00:18:36:12 00:18:42:26
and I've seen how much misconception
there is about Indigenous peoples,

00:18:42:26 00:18:46:03
how much lies are believed,

00:18:47:23 00:18:51:29
how little is known,
how little experience has been had,

00:18:51:29 00:18:58:05
and my responsibility, I think,
is to be a compassionate person,

00:18:58:05 00:19:01:09
a compassionate bridge for people

00:19:01:09 00:19:06:28
to connect with what is
the diversity of Indigenous identity.

00:19:06:28 00:19:10:03
And I think that's really
what it comes down to.

00:19:10:03 00:19:13:00
I'm trying and striving
for self-determination

00:19:13:00 00:19:16:00
for people that have been owed

00:19:16:16 00:19:21:08
self-determination for generations
on these lands,

00:19:21:08 00:19:24:09
and the only way that I could
possibly do that

00:19:24:09 00:19:26:19
is to be completely honest with people

00:19:26:19 00:19:30:02
about their misconceptions

00:19:30:02 00:19:33:06
or about their racism
or about their support.

00:19:33:06 00:19:36:22
It allows me to do a lot just to be
honest and truthful with people.

00:19:36:22 00:19:37:16
Yeah.

00:19:37:16 00:19:39:21
That's interesting.
It actually struck me,

00:19:39:21 00:19:44:03
as you were speaking,
just how honest you are

00:19:44:03 00:19:45:09
in your own experience.

00:19:45:09 00:19:48:27
You're not afraid to admit

00:19:48:27 00:19:52:04
that you didn't always
have it figured out,

00:19:52:04 00:19:53:12
you haven't always been in this space,

00:19:53:12 00:19:55:29
you maybe haven't even always
done things perfectly or right,

00:19:55:29 00:19:59:09
and that was something that I admired

00:19:59:09 00:20:02:04
and I think that that honesty,

00:20:02:16 00:20:05:27
that value, is something
that definitely shines through

00:20:05:27 00:20:07:22
even already in this conversation.

00:20:08:12 00:20:11:03
Jumping back to you, Justine.

00:20:11:03 00:20:16:01
How has your family and community
and heritage shaped

00:20:16:01 00:20:18:23
your education and personal path

00:20:18:23 00:20:20:15
up to this point in your career?

00:20:20:15 00:20:22:23
Well, I would say,

00:20:22:23 00:20:26:08
I think I went into radio
and television by accident.

00:20:27:23 00:20:30:12
And as a immigrant kid,

00:20:30:12 00:20:35:01
my parents really wanted their kids
to be accountants,

00:20:35:01 00:20:37:08
doctors or lawyers.

00:20:37:24 00:20:40:14
The typical stereotype.

00:20:40:14 00:20:43:18
So I went through high school
doing all my math,

00:20:43:18 00:20:44:26
getting all my science.

00:20:45:14 00:20:47:12
Those were the subjects I focused on.

00:20:47:12 00:20:48:14
And to be honest,

00:20:48:14 00:20:50:14
I didn't really know
what I wanted to be,

00:20:50:14 00:20:52:20
but it was like, OK,
well I can do science,

00:20:52:20 00:20:53:19
I can do math.

00:20:54:05 00:20:55:27
In my, you know,

00:20:56:14 00:20:58:26
with my grade back then,

00:20:58:26 00:21:03:01
I applied to the University of Toronto

00:21:03:01 00:21:05:03
and got into their science program

00:21:05:16 00:21:07:22
and I thought that was gonna be my path.

00:21:07:22 00:21:13:19
But that year, my high school
has a television course,

00:21:13:19 00:21:15:06
which I took,

00:21:15:27 00:21:17:22
and I absolutely loved it.

00:21:18:29 00:21:22:14
I thought: Oh, maybe I can do this.

00:21:22:29 00:21:26:22
But it was like,
I just got accepted to university

00:21:27:05 00:21:29:14
and I had a really tough decision to make.

00:21:30:00 00:21:32:08
Do I change course

00:21:32:08 00:21:35:10
or do I just go to the university

00:21:35:10 00:21:37:02
and get my science degree?

00:21:38:03 00:21:39:24
And my dad said this to me,

00:21:39:24 00:21:41:21
because he's an immigrant,

00:21:41:21 00:21:45:12
and he had this ideal
of what his kids should be,

00:21:45:12 00:21:48:00
he says: "I strongly disagree
with what you're doing."

00:21:48:00 00:21:49:01
Wow.

00:21:49:15 00:21:51:24
He said: "I don't agree with it,

00:21:51:24 00:21:53:29
"I think you should go
and do a science degree."

00:21:54:15 00:21:55:22
You know, I cried,

00:21:55:22 00:21:57:21
and it makes me upset even today.

00:21:59:10 00:22:04:07
You know, the weight of that expectation

00:22:04:07 00:22:09:09
and desire to be what you're supposed to

00:22:10:07 00:22:12:13
is a lot to hold.

00:22:14:06 00:22:16:27
But I decided
I'm not gonna do the science degree,

00:22:16:27 00:22:18:17
and I'm gonna do this.

00:22:20:03 00:22:21:08
That would have taken a lot.

00:22:21:26 00:22:24:12
I love the way that you said
it was by accident

00:22:24:12 00:22:27:06
or if you don't believe in accidents,

00:22:27:06 00:22:30:20
it was completely intentional
that you stumbled into

00:22:30:20 00:22:34:14
that television course
and it drew you in

00:22:34:14 00:22:36:26
and completely altered your path

00:22:36:26 00:22:42:11
and allowed you to
courageously choose for you.

00:22:43:04 00:22:46:03
And I'm curious to know,

00:22:46:03 00:22:47:28
now, as an Asian woman,

00:22:48:13 00:22:52:04
in this field of equity and inclusion,

00:22:52:19 00:22:57:06
what do you consider
your responsibility in this space?

00:22:57:06 00:23:00:11
You know, going into this work,
this equity and inclusion work,

00:23:01:00 00:23:02:19
again, it was by accident.

00:23:03:08 00:23:06:02
It was just something I was curious in

00:23:06:02 00:23:09:19
and had an opportunity
and stepped into it two years ago.

00:23:10:13 00:23:13:07
You know, I think my responsibility

00:23:13:07 00:23:16:29
is really just to help listen

00:23:16:29 00:23:18:29
to what people are saying

00:23:19:13 00:23:23:01
and really try to break down
those barriers

00:23:23:01 00:23:24:26
and provide a support.

00:23:24:26 00:23:27:28
I think because of your own
personal experience,

00:23:27:28 00:23:30:09
there's things that you can see
that other people don't see.

00:23:30:27 00:23:33:04
And when we see those,
it's our responsibility

00:23:33:04 00:23:34:23
to try to do something about it,

00:23:35:08 00:23:36:17
because you understand.

00:23:36:17 00:23:39:21
And so in this role,
I think it's just,

00:23:39:21 00:23:42:16
if I see it and I understand it,
I need to do something about it.

00:23:42:16 00:23:43:06
Yeah.

00:23:43:06 00:23:46:08
I'm curious to know
what are some of the hurdles

00:23:46:08 00:23:49:06
or the triumphs that you've
encountered along the way.

00:23:51:23 00:23:53:05
That's a difficult one to answer.

00:23:53:05 00:23:56:09
I think this work is difficult work.

00:23:56:23 00:23:58:13
It's ever-changing work.

00:23:59:04 00:24:02:00
You know, Nic mentioned language.

00:24:02:00 00:24:05:15
It's sometimes just figuring out
how to say things

00:24:06:02 00:24:09:12
is difficult because everyone
comes from a different perspective

00:24:09:12 00:24:11:07
and everyone has different ideas.

00:24:11:07 00:24:11:28
Yeah.

00:24:11:28 00:24:14:27
And you're trying to be inclusive
in this work, right?

00:24:15:12 00:24:16:22
But you can't always

00:24:16:22 00:24:19:10
because people have
different perspectives, right?

00:24:19:10 00:24:20:03
Yeah.

00:24:20:03 00:24:23:26
So I think the hurdle
is when you try to do everything

00:24:24:14 00:24:26:15
and it's just really thinking about,

00:24:26:15 00:24:28:15
you know, it is the one step at a time,

00:24:28:15 00:24:30:06
one project at a time,

00:24:30:06 00:24:31:25
one person at a time,

00:24:32:12 00:24:34:12
and just deal with it that way.

00:24:34:12 00:24:36:20
Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense,

00:24:36:20 00:24:41:12
and something that strikes me
about what both of you have shared

00:24:41:12 00:24:47:05
is that when you're in this field
of equity and inclusion,

00:24:47:05 00:24:49:19
the lines start to blur

00:24:49:19 00:24:56:17
between work and your own
personal connection to the work.

00:24:56:17 00:25:02:03
It is such purposeful heart-centred work.

00:25:02:03 00:25:05:28
And it's been really enlightening

00:25:05:28 00:25:10:18
and I think important to hear
the parts of both of you

00:25:10:18 00:25:14:07
that you've shared,
that you bring to this field.

00:25:14:07 00:25:15:28
I think that a lot of the people

00:25:15:28 00:25:19:10
that are doing the kind of work
that you both do

00:25:19:10 00:25:21:22
are not just showing up
to get a paycheck.

00:25:21:22 00:25:25:12
You know? So much of you is in that.

00:25:25:12 00:25:28:18
And there's things like burnout,

00:25:28:18 00:25:32:00
like feeling some of those frustrations

00:25:32:00 00:25:33:29
and grappling with language

00:25:33:29 00:25:38:06
and yeah, I think it's an interesting
kind of dynamic, there.

00:25:38:18 00:25:42:17
If I might just speak
to my friend Justine for a second,

00:25:42:17 00:25:44:12
do a little bit of...

00:25:44:27 00:25:47:23
I'm not gonna get spiritual on you
or anything like that,

00:25:47:23 00:25:52:27
but given that it's difficult
to avoid emotions,

00:25:52:27 00:25:55:06
this is what we're talking about
in this situation,

00:25:55:06 00:25:57:27
when it is that Justine
is at work right now,

00:25:57:27 00:26:00:23
and is facing for the betterment
of her work,

00:26:01:06 00:26:03:24
her own internal thoughts,

00:26:03:24 00:26:05:15
her own fears,

00:26:05:15 00:26:07:25
her own insecurities,

00:26:08:14 00:26:10:06
forced on her.

00:26:10:06 00:26:13:14
Justine, it's funny to hear you say

00:26:13:14 00:26:16:06
that you found television by accident

00:26:16:06 00:26:18:15
because I would say the exact same thing.

00:26:18:15 00:26:21:09
I was in a completely different career.

00:26:21:24 00:26:23:23
I was extremely unhealthy.

00:26:23:23 00:26:27:00
I worked in hospitality
for the better part of 10 years,

00:26:27:00 00:26:31:05
and I got into that to get myself
out of trouble

00:26:31:05 00:26:33:05
with bad habits,

00:26:33:25 00:26:36:14
doing a lot of nothing,

00:26:37:15 00:26:40:08
facing a lot of substance use,

00:26:40:08 00:26:43:22
and other things that came reasonably

00:26:43:22 00:26:47:26
from being a privileged,
White-passing male

00:26:47:26 00:26:48:27
in Canada.

00:26:49:12 00:26:50:15
I think, at least.

00:26:51:09 00:26:54:00
And it was an accident that I found

00:26:54:24 00:26:56:03
the television, the radio,

00:26:56:03 00:27:00:11
television journalism program
at the Nova Scotia community college.

00:27:01:02 00:27:03:11
It was a technical training course
for two years.

00:27:03:11 00:27:04:15
I could afford it,

00:27:04:15 00:27:07:22
especially because I was able
to go back to my band

00:27:08:07 00:27:10:11
and ask for more money.

00:27:10:11 00:27:12:13
I dropped out of university

00:27:12:13 00:27:15:12
and I asked them for more
financial support,

00:27:15:27 00:27:19:16
because I actually found what it is
that I think that I wanted to do.

00:27:19:28 00:27:23:07
And I kept remembering the moment
where it is that I actually said:

00:27:23:07 00:27:25:05
Oh, that's an interesting-looking program,

00:27:25:05 00:27:26:08
I'll do that.

00:27:26:08 00:27:29:10
I took pictures
and I couldn't write at the time.

00:27:29:10 00:27:31:16
I was experimenting with video.

00:27:31:16 00:27:33:02
But it was by accident.

00:27:33:02 00:27:34:16
Now...

00:27:36:28 00:27:42:03
The now Nic that's talking
to you, Justine, is like:

00:27:42:03 00:27:44:00
Isn't everything an accident?

00:27:44:00 00:27:47:13
And isn't how you react to it

00:27:47:13 00:27:49:19
what is way more important?

00:27:50:08 00:27:54:27
The fact that you are our trusted,

00:27:54:27 00:27:59:10
legitimately trusted EDI lead,

00:27:59:10 00:28:02:27
that we can go to you
for these types of things,

00:28:02:27 00:28:05:00
that at this point,

00:28:06:06 00:28:09:09
you're kind of the person
that I would prefer to have

00:28:09:09 00:28:12:18
in any of the conversations
we have with producers.

00:28:13:07 00:28:16:18
The fact that you're this person now,

00:28:17:03 00:28:20:27
I think of course has something to do
with your identity,

00:28:21:19 00:28:24:29
but it's also your perspective.

00:28:24:29 00:28:26:28
It's mostly your perspective.

00:28:26:28 00:28:28:20
And you talked about that too.

00:28:28:20 00:28:32:11
We deal with, in our jobs,

00:28:32:11 00:28:35:21
perspectives of so many
different humans,

00:28:35:21 00:28:39:20
and their perspectives are really
just the sum totals

00:28:39:20 00:28:41:13
of their life's experiences.

00:28:41:13 00:28:44:27
So when you work in this particular realm,

00:28:45:12 00:28:50:04
you are asking your partners
and your colleagues

00:28:50:04 00:28:53:17
to open up their emotional baggage.

00:28:54:13 00:28:55:20
Everybody comes with it,

00:28:55:20 00:28:59:05
and so it takes a very specific
type of person,

00:28:59:05 00:29:01:14
very specific type of personality,

00:29:01:14 00:29:03:29
I think, to be able to do that.

00:29:04:15 00:29:06:01
You just happen to know what's right.

00:29:06:01 00:29:07:16
You happen to know what's wrong,

00:29:07:16 00:29:11:08
and you're at least brave enough
to go through with it,

00:29:11:08 00:29:13:23
to examine it or to face it.

00:29:15:03 00:29:18:07
So we've talked about
our personal backgrounds

00:29:18:07 00:29:21:04
and between the three of us,

00:29:21:04 00:29:24:12
we represent every letter
in the term "BIPOC."

00:29:25:13 00:29:29:28
I wanted to segue
into the concept of language

00:29:29:28 00:29:32:15
and talk a little bit about this term.

00:29:33:06 00:29:36:26
So the term was created
as a better way to describe

00:29:36:26 00:29:39:07
non-White people as a collective,

00:29:39:07 00:29:43:04
the term "people of colour"
didn't acknowledge the nuance

00:29:43:04 00:29:46:19
and disproportionate discrimination
and prejudice

00:29:46:19 00:29:49:12
that impacts Black and Indigenous people

00:29:49:12 00:29:55:08
who continue to bear
the rippling systemic aftershocks

00:29:55:08 00:29:57:29
of enslavement and genocide.

00:29:57:29 00:30:01:06
And when the term was created
by highlighting

00:30:01:06 00:30:02:21
Black and Indigenous,

00:30:02:21 00:30:05:27
it essentially reinforces that fact

00:30:05:27 00:30:10:06
that not all people of colour
have the same experience.

00:30:10:06 00:30:15:21
I think regardless of that
well-intentioned start,

00:30:15:21 00:30:17:28
I wonder if the term has become

00:30:18:14 00:30:22:20
sort of so widely used
that it's been watered down

00:30:22:20 00:30:24:23
and now just sort of serves
the same purpose

00:30:24:23 00:30:26:03
as "people of colour"

00:30:26:03 00:30:29:12
where it kind of lumps everyone
into that same category.

00:30:29:12 00:30:31:21
In both of your worlds,

00:30:31:21 00:30:34:22
the same world of equity and inclusion,

00:30:34:22 00:30:36:07
language is pivotal.

00:30:36:07 00:30:39:27
We've touched on that earlier
and I wanted to come back to it.

00:30:39:27 00:30:44:05
I'm curious to know your thoughts
about the term "BIPOC"

00:30:44:05 00:30:48:02
or any terms or any kind
of language in general

00:30:48:02 00:30:50:17
that you deal with in your fields

00:30:50:17 00:30:54:02
and how it's been used
in the media industry

00:30:54:02 00:30:57:01
both positively or negatively.

00:30:57:01 00:30:59:16
You're trying to get me cancelled
with this question.

00:31:03:01 00:31:04:02
Spill the tea.

00:31:04:25 00:31:07:19
So yeah, I totally get...

00:31:07:19 00:31:13:17
I see BIPOC as a utility,

00:31:13:17 00:31:18:20
as a tool to describe other people,
or people that...

00:31:18:20 00:31:20:05
You know, it has to get...

00:31:20:05 00:31:21:18
Language has to get,

00:31:21:18 00:31:24:15
it's said from a particular
social location,

00:31:24:15 00:31:26:08
that's how one of my colleagues
described it.

00:31:26:08 00:31:30:29
A social location meaning that
the person who...

00:31:30:29 00:31:32:23
It's not just the word
that's being said,

00:31:32:23 00:31:35:14
it's what's inferred,
that's what language is.

00:31:35:14 00:31:37:05
That's what's communicated.

00:31:37:19 00:31:40:00
So to me, I don't really care

00:31:40:00 00:31:43:09
whether or not you include me in "BIPOC."

00:31:43:22 00:31:47:04
I don't care if you include
Indigenous people.

00:31:47:04 00:31:49:19
Some people are saying "BPOC" now,

00:31:49:19 00:31:53:24
whereas just in the past
couple of months,

00:31:53:24 00:31:56:02
I've heard that Indigenous
should now be

00:31:56:02 00:32:00:00
set aside so it's
Indigenous and BPOC people.

00:32:00:00 00:32:02:15
And as an Indigenous person,
I'm like:

00:32:02:15 00:32:05:11
So what about my cousins who are Black?

00:32:05:11 00:32:07:10
What about my cousins who are Chinese?

00:32:07:10 00:32:09:20
All of those things
come into it.

00:32:09:20 00:32:11:28
To me, it's just a tool.

00:32:11:28 00:32:16:08
If you're describing
Black Indigenous people of colour,

00:32:16:08 00:32:22:03
you are talking about
the majority of the planet.

00:32:22:03 00:32:23:09
Yeah.

00:32:23:09 00:32:26:16
Right? So it's not useful to me.

00:32:26:16 00:32:31:01
It can just drop in
in a sentence to refer...

00:32:31:01 00:32:32:27
Really, when people are saying "BIPOC,"

00:32:32:27 00:32:36:04
I think they're talking about equity stuff

00:32:36:04 00:32:39:05
or they're speaking
in generalizations anyway,

00:32:39:05 00:32:40:25
so it's not really that useful.

00:32:40:25 00:32:42:27
You know, I think that
in the Indigenous world,

00:32:42:27 00:32:44:15
at least the First Nations world,

00:32:45:14 00:32:47:16
the world that I'm a part of,

00:32:47:16 00:32:49:29
we're trying to be specific as hell.

00:32:49:29 00:32:52:18
The course that I give with CBC,

00:32:52:18 00:32:55:05
Reporting in Indigenous Communities

00:32:55:05 00:33:00:08
there's a specific section
about addressing terminology,

00:33:00:08 00:33:01:24
questions around terminology,

00:33:01:24 00:33:08:08
how to describe a Native Aboriginal
Indigenous Inuit Métis person.

00:33:08:08 00:33:09:27
Which of those do you use?

00:33:09:27 00:33:12:11
Can you say Native?
Can you say Aboriginal?

00:33:12:11 00:33:14:05
When do you say Indigenous?

00:33:14:05 00:33:18:10
And the rule of thumb that we use
is to be as specific as possible.

00:33:18:23 00:33:21:29
If someone's Cree,
you can call them Cree.

00:33:21:29 00:33:24:27
If you don't know, then ask.

00:33:24:27 00:33:27:29
But being more specific,

00:33:27:29 00:33:30:02
that should be the foundational rule,

00:33:30:02 00:33:32:00
is to be as specific as possible.

00:33:32:14 00:33:39:05
So I don't really care
about "BIPOC" as a term.

00:33:39:05 00:33:44:23
And I think that if there's a debate
over whether or not you're using it

00:33:44:23 00:33:48:02
in a correct way or
if you should use it at all,

00:33:48:17 00:33:51:15
the effort that you're putting
into that debate is misspent

00:33:51:15 00:33:54:04
and you should be talking
about more important things.

00:33:54:25 00:33:57:10
Thank you.
That's a hot take.

00:33:57:10 00:33:59:03
Thank you.
- It's a hot take, yeah.

00:33:59:25 00:34:01:28
Do you have anything
to add to that, Justine?

00:34:02:16 00:34:05:05
"BIPOC" is a term
I personally don't use anymore

00:34:05:18 00:34:11:20
because I think I was using it
as a term to lump everyone in

00:34:11:20 00:34:15:23
and we know everyone
has different experiences

00:34:15:23 00:34:19:24
and the conversation is different
depending on who you're talking to,

00:34:19:24 00:34:24:18
so I do feel it is diluted,

00:34:24:18 00:34:26:03
in terms of the meaning,

00:34:26:03 00:34:28:06
so yeah, I try not to use it anymore.

00:34:28:06 00:34:29:05
Yeah.

00:34:29:05 00:34:31:25
And I think it's also interesting

00:34:31:25 00:34:37:21
to corporations or projects or whatever
could have BIPOC targets,

00:34:37:21 00:34:40:29
but you know,
the percentages our breakdown

00:34:40:29 00:34:42:28
of each individual letter

00:34:42:28 00:34:45:16
and also just
the generalization of "POC,"

00:34:45:16 00:34:48:20
person of colour,
that's meaning nothing at all, really.

00:34:48:20 00:34:50:02
What does that mean, really?

00:34:50:02 00:34:51:20
That's all of us, so...

00:34:51:20 00:34:52:18
Which colour?

00:34:52:18 00:34:53:15
Yeah.

00:34:55:06 00:34:56:09
Fair question.

00:34:57:29 00:35:00:26
I think that in this unscripted world

00:35:00:26 00:35:03:11
that you're both in,
bringing stories to light,

00:35:03:11 00:35:07:00
sometimes there's this mandate
to have more "BIPOC"

00:35:07:00 00:35:09:05
said in quotations, representation,

00:35:09:05 00:35:12:25
but how do you choose
who represents from within that?

00:35:12:25 00:35:15:09
And I think both of you kind of
have already answered that question

00:35:15:09 00:35:18:08
by saying it's like,
get as specific as possible

00:35:18:08 00:35:20:01
and let's look at the actual humans

00:35:20:01 00:35:22:14
that are being considered here

00:35:22:14 00:35:26:23
instead of just this concept
of an umbrella monolith

00:35:26:23 00:35:30:26
BIPOC community that is obviously
so nuanced and varied.

00:35:30:26 00:35:33:06
I think it's very important
to have conversations

00:35:33:06 00:35:36:06
and not think about what is the policy

00:35:36:06 00:35:38:23
and what is the mandate
and the commitment, right?

00:35:38:23 00:35:43:12
Because if you're just thinking about:
I need to reach this school,

00:35:43:12 00:35:44:24
and that's all you're thinking about,

00:35:44:24 00:35:46:21
then you're missing out
on the conversation.

00:35:46:21 00:35:49:12
Hmm, nuance.
- Yeah, so I think...

00:35:50:07 00:35:52:08
I think the policies are good

00:35:52:08 00:35:54:12
because it gets us
to a place that we want to be,

00:35:54:12 00:35:57:14
but I think it's really important
that we have those conversations

00:35:57:14 00:36:00:00
and really think about why
we have those policies

00:36:00:00 00:36:01:26
and what it is
that we're trying to achieve.

00:36:01:26 00:36:02:26
Yeah.

00:36:02:26 00:36:06:24
Yeah, there's so much more focus
on why as opposed to what,

00:36:06:24 00:36:10:26
I feel, from people that are
effective in this type of job.

00:36:10:26 00:36:11:18
Yeah.

00:36:11:18 00:36:12:29
Thank you. Thank you both.

00:36:14:00 00:36:15:19
Kind of an offshoot of that,

00:36:15:19 00:36:19:14
I wanted to loop us back
to this conversation

00:36:19:14 00:36:22:28
about this element of hierarchy

00:36:22:28 00:36:26:11
or differences in the multiple
communities that exist

00:36:26:11 00:36:31:06
within every smaller community
within BIPOC.

00:36:31:06 00:36:32:18
Like for example,

00:36:32:18 00:36:35:26
the colourism that exists
within the Black community,

00:36:35:26 00:36:38:10
which we know is just
a colonial remnant

00:36:38:10 00:36:41:00
and on the flipside of it,

00:36:41:00 00:36:46:12
there's nuance to how connected
people feel to their roots

00:36:46:12 00:36:47:27
and to their culture

00:36:47:27 00:36:51:15
based on things like
whether they speak the language,

00:36:51:15 00:36:55:03
or maybe whether they grew up
on or off-res,

00:36:55:03 00:36:57:27
or how much of the culture
has been preserved.

00:36:57:27 00:37:00:10
This is kind of what
we were talking about earlier.

00:37:00:10 00:37:04:02
I'm just wondering what you would offer

00:37:04:02 00:37:07:00
to someone who is maybe struggling

00:37:07:00 00:37:10:05
to feel validated
in their racialized identity.

00:37:10:23 00:37:14:22
I'm gonna say that I think
everyone's identity,

00:37:14:22 00:37:17:14
everyone's experience is their own.

00:37:17:26 00:37:19:00
Right?

00:37:19:00 00:37:22:19
And I think, like,
I spent my life comparing.

00:37:22:19 00:37:23:21
Yeah.
- Right?

00:37:23:21 00:37:24:27
Not enough.

00:37:24:27 00:37:27:12
So I think what I've learned is,

00:37:28:11 00:37:30:20
you know, what does it mean
to be Chinese?

00:37:30:20 00:37:34:06
Right? Like, do you have
to speak the language?

00:37:34:06 00:37:36:23
Do you have to fully
understand the culture?

00:37:36:23 00:37:42:10
And if you didn't grow up
in Hong Kong or China,

00:37:42:10 00:37:44:08
does that make you less Chinese?

00:37:44:08 00:37:45:03
Right?

00:37:45:03 00:37:50:13
So I think everyone has a right
to be what they want to be.

00:37:50:13 00:37:53:02
I don't think someone can say:
"Well, you're not Chinese enough,"

00:37:53:02 00:37:54:05
which is what I grew up with.

00:37:54:05 00:37:58:02
There's a term that people use
for Western Chinese,

00:37:58:02 00:38:00:16
it was like "banana" or "jook-sing."

00:38:00:16 00:38:03:23
And that's like language,
when we talk about language,

00:38:03:23 00:38:04:29
language does matter,

00:38:04:29 00:38:08:02
when you need to think about
the kind of language you say to people.

00:38:08:23 00:38:12:01
And then, I'm sorry,
just going back to your question,

00:38:12:01 00:38:14:00
I think it's up to the individual.

00:38:14:00 00:38:17:29
Don't let other people impose
what they believe you should be.

00:38:18:24 00:38:21:05
We have "apple."

00:38:21:05 00:38:22:29
You got "banana," we have "apple."

00:38:22:29 00:38:24:08
And "Oreo" over here.

00:38:24:08 00:38:25:27
And "Oreo," yeah, exactly.

00:38:25:27 00:38:27:20
It's all food, interesting.

00:38:27:20 00:38:31:23
Oreos are a little bit
on the less fruit side of things,

00:38:31:23 00:38:33:07
but that's alright.

00:38:33:07 00:38:35:21
For those that don't know,
do we have to explain it,

00:38:35:21 00:38:38:18
that it'd be like black on the outside,
white in the middle,

00:38:38:18 00:38:40:04
or red on the outside,
white in the middle,

00:38:40:04 00:38:41:18
or yellow on the outside,
white in the middle?

00:38:41:18 00:38:42:22
Yeah,

00:38:44:29 00:38:46:29
It's... My advice...

00:38:46:29 00:38:49:17
So I've been called an apple,

00:38:50:21 00:38:53:07
by an Indigenous family member.

00:38:53:07 00:38:54:04
Just one time.

00:38:55:11 00:38:59:20
I took it as kind of a compliment
in a weird,

00:38:59:20 00:39:03:03
my own interesting identity issues.

00:39:03:03 00:39:06:19
I figured that they were looking
past the fact

00:39:06:19 00:39:08:11
that I'm not red on the outside.

00:39:09:02 00:39:12:04
And I saw that as a bit
of a compliment,

00:39:12:04 00:39:14:01
because I've been so sensitive

00:39:14:01 00:39:19:06
to not being visually prejudiced against.

00:39:19:06 00:39:23:23
You know, because I look
more White than I look

00:39:23:23 00:39:27:05
whatever Indigenous peoples look like,

00:39:27:05 00:39:29:02
I saw that as kind of a compliment.

00:39:29:02 00:39:31:21
And the most Indigenous people
that I know

00:39:31:21 00:39:36:01
are people that have very,
very nuanced opinions

00:39:36:01 00:39:38:12
about what makes you Indigenous.

00:39:38:12 00:39:41:12
The idea of placing a label

00:39:41:12 00:39:43:05
or putting yourself...

00:39:43:05 00:39:46:28
Colourism, or different shades
of indigeneity,

00:39:46:28 00:39:48:26
or different shades of blackness,

00:39:49:21 00:39:53:18
those are Western ideas.

00:39:53:18 00:39:56:09
Those are colonial ideas.
- Yeah.

00:39:56:09 00:39:58:22
People were judged,
people were labelled

00:39:58:22 00:40:01:01
based on what they did,

00:40:01:19 00:40:03:22
who they were connected to.

00:40:04:13 00:40:06:25
So much more kind of rootsy,

00:40:06:25 00:40:10:06
granular and way more nuanced ways

00:40:10:06 00:40:13:19
than just a colour
or a particular community

00:40:13:19 00:40:14:27
that you identify from.

00:40:14:27 00:40:18:01
So it's a very colonial thing.

00:40:18:01 00:40:23:23
When I got called an apple
by one of my family members,

00:40:25:01 00:40:26:20
I immediately retorted with:

00:40:26:20 00:40:30:17
Well, that's really
colonial of you, isn't it?

00:40:31:14 00:40:33:07
I think that's a fair retort.

00:40:33:07 00:40:34:06
Yeah.

00:40:34:21 00:40:36:28
Thank you for sharing that,
both of you.

00:40:36:28 00:40:40:00
What really strikes me
in both of your responses

00:40:40:00 00:40:43:18
is just the humanness
in holding space

00:40:43:18 00:40:46:16
for being both and in everything.

00:40:46:16 00:40:49:25
Like, I think life is not,

00:40:49:25 00:40:53:01
especially even with our feelings
towards this,

00:40:53:01 00:40:56:17
life is not about just being one thing.

00:40:56:17 00:41:00:01
I think there's so much room
for holding space

00:41:00:01 00:41:01:26
for those intersections.

00:41:01:26 00:41:06:17
And I think that's actually
a good connection to our next question.

00:41:06:17 00:41:08:27
We know we are not a monolith.

00:41:08:27 00:41:12:03
Each person holds different multitudes

00:41:12:03 00:41:13:22
and intersectionalities

00:41:13:22 00:41:18:07
and equity and inclusion work
goes beyond racial identity.

00:41:18:07 00:41:21:20
In your respective work,
how do you consider

00:41:21:20 00:41:24:10
and account for intersectionality?

00:41:24:10 00:41:26:23
What does that look like
in practice?

00:41:27:13 00:41:31:13
I can talk about in terms of
when we talk about...

00:41:32:01 00:41:34:13
as part of the Unscripted department,

00:41:34:13 00:41:36:27
we have the inclusion plan,

00:41:36:27 00:41:39:07
and what does that mean?

00:41:39:07 00:41:41:24
And it's not about the numbers,

00:41:41:24 00:41:44:06
because you can have
really good numbers,

00:41:44:06 00:41:46:08
and then when you look
at the intersections,

00:41:46:08 00:41:47:21
what do they look like?

00:41:47:21 00:41:49:17
And what does that mean?

00:41:50:08 00:41:53:15
When I use my background
as an example,

00:41:53:15 00:41:55:13
you're gonna tell a Chinese story.

00:41:55:13 00:41:57:23
What does a Chinese story mean?

00:41:58:09 00:42:00:20
Are you talking about
a Cantonese family?

00:42:00:20 00:42:02:15
Are you talking about
a Mandarin family?

00:42:02:15 00:42:05:13
And then you talk about
what is the male perspective?

00:42:05:13 00:42:06:26
What is the female perspective?

00:42:07:09 00:42:09:14
What is the LGBTQ perspective

00:42:09:14 00:42:11:27
from a Chinese point of view?

00:42:11:27 00:42:14:03
Like, there's so many layers.
- Yeah.

00:42:14:03 00:42:16:18
And what about the disability, right?

00:42:17:01 00:42:18:11
Economic status.

00:42:18:11 00:42:20:06
Exactly, you know?

00:42:21:01 00:42:23:12
There's just so many layers,

00:42:23:26 00:42:26:15
and so I think those
are all very important

00:42:26:15 00:42:28:17
because when you talk
about being inclusive,

00:42:28:17 00:42:30:13
it's not the one group,

00:42:30:13 00:42:32:29
or that's not the majority that you see.

00:42:32:29 00:42:35:18
It's everyone that's part
of this community.

00:42:35:18 00:42:38:29
They should all have space to speak

00:42:38:29 00:42:42:01
and we should seek out these stories too

00:42:42:01 00:42:44:07
because they're all important stories.

00:42:44:25 00:42:45:22
Yeah.

00:42:45:22 00:42:49:05
The nature of...
I completely agree with you,

00:42:49:05 00:42:52:09
Justine, and I think that
to further what you say,

00:42:52:21 00:42:57:04
when we talk about stories
and lands and representation

00:42:57:04 00:42:59:16
and stories like we work
in the story realm, right?

00:42:59:16 00:43:03:27
And we can always consider
that if there's intersectionality,

00:43:03:27 00:43:08:04
we examine whether or not
it's going to enhance the story somehow.

00:43:08:04 00:43:09:26
It's another big component of it.

00:43:09:26 00:43:12:09
If somebody's bringing lived experience

00:43:12:09 00:43:14:22
from one particular facet of their life

00:43:14:22 00:43:17:15
into a particular subject matter,

00:43:17:15 00:43:21:27
from a different facet
of their life's experience,

00:43:21:27 00:43:24:12
then it could reasonably
enhance the story.

00:43:24:12 00:43:26:04
It could make for something
more compelling

00:43:26:04 00:43:28:06
or more educational

00:43:28:06 00:43:30:13
or bombastic, what have you,
more funny.

00:43:31:08 00:43:32:23
We look at it like that.

00:43:32:23 00:43:35:16
Obviously, we have an obligation
to ensure that.

00:43:35:16 00:43:38:03
We're part of a very large system

00:43:39:03 00:43:43:02
that is exclusionary
to so many different people,

00:43:43:02 00:43:47:12
so we have an obligation
as compassionate human beings

00:43:47:12 00:43:50:25
to relieve a little bit
of that tension

00:43:50:25 00:43:53:25
and fill some of those gaps,

00:43:53:25 00:43:56:17
set up these equitable pathways for people

00:43:56:17 00:43:59:29
and that's what the policies
we're talking about...

00:44:00:17 00:44:04:19
If I can just say too,
the nature of intersectionality

00:44:04:19 00:44:08:25
suggests kind of linear representations

00:44:08:25 00:44:11:00
of a person's identity.

00:44:11:00 00:44:14:07
So if they happen to be Black
and disabled,

00:44:14:21 00:44:16:20
you're still just saying that this person

00:44:16:20 00:44:19:04
is just Black and just disabled.

00:44:19:04 00:44:21:26
I feel that enough of us,

00:44:21:26 00:44:23:13
at least at the CBC,

00:44:23:13 00:44:27:11
definitely people whose words I've read

00:44:27:11 00:44:29:19
and listened to in other places,

00:44:29:19 00:44:32:17
when we talk about human rights and EDI.

00:44:32:29 00:44:36:20
Those people aren't looking
at those individual intersections,

00:44:36:20 00:44:38:15
they're way zoomed out.

00:44:38:15 00:44:40:29
They're not seeing
those individual things,

00:44:40:29 00:44:43:29
they see many hundreds of intersections

00:44:43:29 00:44:45:23
from all of these different places.

00:44:45:23 00:44:48:03
And that's a really important thing,
I think.

00:44:48:21 00:44:53:12
The other thing that I really
try to bring to my work

00:44:53:12 00:44:56:16
is an examination of time.

00:44:56:16 00:45:00:19
Where it is in the timeline
that I am right now.

00:45:01:17 00:45:03:20
At this particular time in the media,

00:45:03:20 00:45:06:17
saying words like "BIPOC"
or "intersectionality"

00:45:06:17 00:45:08:20
and all of those things,
it's relevant,

00:45:08:20 00:45:10:10
and it means something to people.

00:45:10:10 00:45:12:27
In 10 years, it could mean
something completely different.

00:45:12:27 00:45:13:14
Yeah.

00:45:13:14 00:45:15:18
And to recognize where you are,

00:45:15:18 00:45:18:06
you should think about
what are we talking about?

00:45:18:06 00:45:20:11
It's the "why" that Justine mentioned,

00:45:20:11 00:45:23:12
It's like why are we using
these particular terms?

00:45:23:12 00:45:26:02
Or what are we trying to get at
to do right by?

00:45:26:21 00:45:29:22
Who are we talking about
and why are we talking about them?

00:45:29:22 00:45:32:11
Those are the things
there's been.

00:45:32:11 00:45:35:11
To think about time
in such a weird spiritual way

00:45:35:11 00:45:40:12
to all of the sum total experiences
that I've had,

00:45:40:12 00:45:45:19
somehow, it's led me to think
about intersectionality like this.

00:45:45:19 00:45:50:05
That is something that could be
valuable to somebody else.

00:45:50:19 00:45:53:20
Those are the types of conversation
you have to have

00:45:53:20 00:45:55:25
when you're talking about this stuff,

00:45:55:25 00:45:58:28
and I feel like we don't
have them often enough.

00:45:58:28 00:46:02:17
We're not zoomed out enough
to get over

00:46:02:29 00:46:05:09
one policy or one word or one term.

00:46:05:09 00:46:08:18
I think the thing that kind of
summarizes that for me

00:46:08:18 00:46:12:27
is just this idea of coming back
to the humans,

00:46:12:27 00:46:17:01
the actual people,
and then taking it from there.

00:46:17:01 00:46:19:25
I know it sounds so simple, almost, but...

00:46:21:02 00:46:22:18
I think that's how it's supposed to be.

00:46:22:18 00:46:24:01
I think so, right?

00:46:26:26 00:46:29:01
Nic, I'm curious to know,

00:46:29:01 00:46:32:22
how do you see
the future of the industry

00:46:32:22 00:46:34:29
from an Indigenous lens?

00:46:34:29 00:46:39:00
So what is not being done
that could be improved

00:46:39:00 00:46:40:26
across the industry

00:46:40:26 00:46:43:23
in relation to Indigenous media?

00:46:43:23 00:46:45:23
What does that look like for you?

00:46:45:23 00:46:49:08
And you can talk here
about the Indigenous strategy work

00:46:49:08 00:46:51:00
that you're doing as well.

00:46:51:00 00:46:53:18
Yup, it's a great way to look at it.

00:46:53:18 00:46:56:02
The future for the industry is bright,

00:46:56:21 00:46:59:25
but I don't say that
to be an optimist

00:46:59:25 00:47:02:20
or to be a referee about things.

00:47:02:20 00:47:06:10
I think that brightness
comes along with darkness,

00:47:06:10 00:47:10:19
comes along with whatever's
in the middle of bright and dark.

00:47:10:19 00:47:11:24
Both and.

00:47:11:24 00:47:13:16
But yeah, exactly.

00:47:14:00 00:47:17:17
The Indigenous strategy,
the way that we have been developing it,

00:47:17:17 00:47:21:09
is the point of the Indigenous strategy.

00:47:21:27 00:47:24:03
You could have an entire
podcast episode

00:47:24:03 00:47:27:16
or maybe a whole series
just on the Indigenous strategy,

00:47:27:16 00:47:28:16
I believe.

00:47:29:01 00:47:30:18
Because it's such a complicated,

00:47:30:18 00:47:34:09
fascinating, risky, scary thing
that we're doing.

00:47:34:23 00:47:36:27
But ultimately, my role in it,

00:47:36:27 00:47:40:11
I've seen my objective in writing,

00:47:40:11 00:47:42:28
and collaborating with all
of my colleagues,

00:47:42:28 00:47:44:29
Indigenous and non-Indigenous,

00:47:44:29 00:47:49:25
is just to bring some emotion
into policy,

00:47:49:25 00:47:53:13
and strategy, and all
of the clunky sharp things

00:47:53:13 00:47:55:27
that come with our corporate nature,

00:47:56:12 00:48:02:04
to outweigh them with fluffy,
round, more human

00:48:02:04 00:48:06:03
kind of goopy, sticky, oily things,
that humans are.

00:48:06:03 00:48:08:11
I'm loving these adjectives,
I have to say.

00:48:08:11 00:48:09:03
Yeah.

00:48:09:03 00:48:11:26
It's about philosophy
and it's about emotion,

00:48:11:26 00:48:17:00
and it's meaningful
if it is that it's giving you anxiety

00:48:17:00 00:48:19:26
or if it's making you feel
pride or outrage,

00:48:19:26 00:48:22:05
if you are having an emotion,

00:48:22:05 00:48:23:18
it means that it's...

00:48:23:18 00:48:26:06
If you're having an episode

00:48:26:25 00:48:33:12
during work around
what should be human rights,

00:48:33:12 00:48:36:20
just a small things like human rights,

00:48:38:02 00:48:39:25
then you're doing it right,

00:48:39:25 00:48:42:15
and it's just to bring
more emotion into it.

00:48:43:23 00:48:50:02
There's a particular idea
or quote or method

00:48:50:02 00:48:53:25
that I've been encountering
regularly in the work

00:48:53:25 00:48:57:23
and it's that the focus
should not be on the destination,

00:48:57:23 00:48:59:08
but the journey.

00:49:00:14 00:49:04:05
The journey is why
we're doing the strategy,

00:49:04:05 00:49:06:19
not to reconcile,

00:49:06:19 00:49:12:18
or to finally achieve reconciliation
with Indigenous peoples at CBC.

00:49:13:01 00:49:15:12
It's just about the journey
of going through it,

00:49:15:12 00:49:18:27
and that's how we've been
developing the strategy,

00:49:18:27 00:49:21:04
is actually by implementing it,

00:49:21:04 00:49:22:29
crying at work,

00:49:22:29 00:49:25:27
telling personal stories
and histories.

00:49:25:27 00:49:27:24
That's the good stuff.

00:49:27:24 00:49:29:26
That's the human stuff.

00:49:29:26 00:49:31:08
That's what connects us.

00:49:31:27 00:49:34:06
I think that both of you,

00:49:34:06 00:49:37:19
this is legacy work
in the sense that

00:49:38:04 00:49:40:25
like you said, it's about
the journey, not the destination.

00:49:40:25 00:49:44:22
You are working towards something
that you may not see the fruits of.

00:49:45:08 00:49:48:11
in your lifetime
and I just wanted to

00:49:48:11 00:49:52:10
commend both of you
for doing that work,

00:49:52:10 00:49:55:24
because I don't think
that everyone could,

00:49:55:24 00:49:59:21
and I think that there's a lot
to be said

00:49:59:21 00:50:03:04
for how much that effort
counts towards.

00:50:03:04 00:50:06:10
I just want to say,
I actually feel lucky

00:50:06:10 00:50:07:25
to be doing this work.

00:50:08:11 00:50:09:17
Right?
- Me too.

00:50:09:17 00:50:12:02
It is a privilege
to be able to do this.

00:50:12:02 00:50:13:14
Yeah, yeah.

00:50:13:14 00:50:15:23
So I'm the lucky one.

00:50:17:13 00:50:19:05
I feel the exact same way,

00:50:19:05 00:50:22:11
I do, and it's because
of the people that I've encountered,

00:50:22:11 00:50:23:18
people like yourselves.

00:50:23:18 00:50:26:26
I appreciate the gratitude
and I reflect it right back at you

00:50:26:26 00:50:27:26
because this is it.

00:50:28:15 00:50:29:27
This is the journey.

00:50:29:27 00:50:30:16
Yeah.

00:50:30:16 00:50:33:13
Justine, I would love
for people to hear

00:50:33:13 00:50:36:16
some example of the initiatives
that you've been working on.

00:50:36:16 00:50:39:13
If you want to share a bit
about the projects

00:50:39:13 00:50:41:07
that you've been on in your role

00:50:42:01 00:50:44:04
as EDI lead for Unscripted Content,

00:50:44:04 00:50:46:17
maybe some that you've been
particularly passionate

00:50:46:17 00:50:48:09
or excited about.

00:50:48:09 00:50:51:27
Yeah, so I can talk about
two recent initiatives.

00:50:51:27 00:50:53:27
One is called Access CBC,

00:50:53:27 00:50:57:18
and it's an initiative for
creators with a disability.

00:50:57:18 00:50:59:12
We got some funding

00:51:00:01 00:51:02:20
and what we did with it
at Unscripted was

00:51:02:20 00:51:05:21
we created a development
and mentorship program

00:51:05:21 00:51:09:24
where we selected 10 filmmakers

00:51:09:24 00:51:12:18
who self-identify as disabled

00:51:12:18 00:51:17:02
and we primarily mentorship
on their short ideas.

00:51:17:02 00:51:20:16
And the intent was to really
give them opportunities

00:51:20:16 00:51:23:07
within CBC, build connections

00:51:23:07 00:51:25:04
with production executives,

00:51:25:04 00:51:29:23
just to kind of... message of
we want to hear your stories.

00:51:30:08 00:51:33:12
The other initiative was
with the nature of things.

00:51:34:03 00:51:39:29
You know, the science of nature
community is very niche

00:51:39:29 00:51:41:06
and not very diverse,

00:51:41:06 00:51:44:09
and that's a gap that we've seen
for many years

00:51:44:09 00:51:48:18
and we've been trying to really
bring more diverse voices

00:51:48:18 00:51:51:05
from behind the scenes
into that particular strand

00:51:51:05 00:51:54:00
and we organize a rock shop
in Vancouver

00:51:54:00 00:51:58:15
for 20 equity-seeking producers

00:51:58:15 00:51:59:24
who were interested in this field,

00:51:59:24 00:52:01:27
and again, it was just really
to provide access.

00:52:01:27 00:52:03:23
Access to a production executive,

00:52:04:09 00:52:06:27
break down the barriers that hey,

00:52:06:27 00:52:08:23
the nature of things
do want to hear from you.

00:52:08:23 00:52:10:03
Come speak to us.

00:52:10:20 00:52:12:25
And it's just, again,
building connections.

00:52:12:25 00:52:13:27
Thank you.

00:52:13:27 00:52:16:20
I think it's so interesting
to get to hear about

00:52:16:20 00:52:21:09
what these initiatives
and programs actually are.

00:52:21:09 00:52:23:22
We've talked a lot
about the depth

00:52:23:22 00:52:26:17
and the philosophy
and the root of them,

00:52:26:17 00:52:29:10
so it's great to end off
on both of you,

00:52:29:10 00:52:33:23
hearing about what your days
look like in that space.

00:52:33:23 00:52:35:03
Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:35:03 00:52:42:19
The Indigenous strategy
really stands to change everything

00:52:42:19 00:52:45:26
about CBC, at least that's how
we've been approaching it.

00:52:45:26 00:52:50:03
The idea of examining
how to better serve

00:52:50:03 00:52:55:01
Indigenous peoples
and their right to self-determination

00:52:55:01 00:52:58:12
is a pretty expensive idea

00:52:58:12 00:53:03:08
because self-determination
requires control,

00:53:03:08 00:53:06:15
consultation, ownership,

00:53:06:15 00:53:10:06
participation, collaboration,
all these things.

00:53:10:06 00:53:13:06
And if you look at the entirety
of the corporation,

00:53:13:06 00:53:15:29
we're talking about
business partnerships,

00:53:15:29 00:53:18:17
so where we get our microphones,

00:53:18:17 00:53:20:21
where we get our toilet paper,

00:53:20:21 00:53:25:21
who it is that we are
working with to provide support

00:53:25:21 00:53:29:22
for our technicians,
all of our journalists.

00:53:29:22 00:53:34:02
Every particular layer
of the corporation

00:53:34:02 00:53:37:12
stands to be affected by
the Indigenous strategy

00:53:37:12 00:53:40:25
if it is going to be implemented
in a good way,

00:53:40:25 00:53:43:02
in the proper way, in the right way.

00:53:43:02 00:53:46:23
The way that Indigenous
communities have told us

00:53:46:23 00:53:48:10
it should be implemented.

00:53:48:28 00:53:50:22
So there are really big changes

00:53:50:22 00:53:53:03
like recruitment and retention.

00:53:53:03 00:53:55:29
We have a program right now
called Indigenous Pathways

00:53:55:29 00:53:58:16
in which we are
in an equitable way,

00:53:58:16 00:54:01:00
in a way that is led by
Indigenous communities,

00:54:01:00 00:54:02:15
going out to Indigenous communities,

00:54:02:15 00:54:05:18
finding people who are interested
in developing a skill set

00:54:05:18 00:54:07:00
in the media world,

00:54:07:13 00:54:09:04
and bringing them in.

00:54:09:04 00:54:11:24
Finding ways to ensure
that they have

00:54:11:24 00:54:13:26
equitable access to housing

00:54:13:26 00:54:16:14
when they go to work,

00:54:16:14 00:54:18:27
or train at CBC.

00:54:18:27 00:54:20:29
Ensuring that they have the right kind

00:54:20:29 00:54:24:14
of culturally reflective
support systems in place.

00:54:24:14 00:54:29:00
Having opportunities to get work
in multiple different areas.

00:54:29:14 00:54:32:28
And as well, if we're
bringing in new people,

00:54:32:28 00:54:35:24
we have to affect the workplace culture,

00:54:35:24 00:54:39:25
we have to ensure that as reasonable,
as much as possible,

00:54:39:25 00:54:44:10
that they're not exposed to racism,

00:54:44:10 00:54:46:17
whether systemic or overt

00:54:46:17 00:54:50:17
or ignorance around things,
so that means more cultural competency.

00:54:51:02 00:54:54:08
And then also keeping them
in the building.

00:54:54:08 00:54:56:02
Ensuring that they're here
for a long time.

00:54:56:02 00:54:59:27
It really...
That conversation can just

00:54:59:27 00:55:01:19
go and go and go.

00:55:01:19 00:55:04:01
Everything is so interconnected

00:55:04:01 00:55:09:06
that reasonably, it could completely
revolutionize CBC & Radio-Canada.

00:55:09:23 00:55:10:23
Thank you.

00:55:10:23 00:55:12:00
Yeah.
- Thank you for sharing that.

00:55:13:04 00:55:15:25
I have a last question here
for both of you.

00:55:15:25 00:55:21:08
If you wanted to leave us
with any words of inspiration

00:55:21:08 00:55:25:15
or quotes or any thoughts
or books

00:55:25:15 00:55:30:02
or anything that has kind of shaped
your perspective

00:55:30:02 00:55:33:18
or really landed with you
in a strong way.

00:55:33:18 00:55:36:29
I'll actually share, you know,

00:55:36:29 00:55:41:08
this isn't a personal quote
that I always turn to or run with,

00:55:41:08 00:55:44:09
but I think this conversation,

00:55:44:09 00:55:48:02
the quotes that comes to mind for me

00:55:48:02 00:55:52:16
is from Eckhart Tolle,
where he says:

00:55:52:16 00:55:58:00
"Only the truth of who you are,
if realized, will set you free."

00:55:58:00 00:56:02:10
And I think that that's really
connected a lot of

00:56:02:27 00:56:06:04
what we've shared and discussed.

00:56:06:24 00:56:10:09
So I'll leave that.
Do you have anything, Justine?

00:56:10:09 00:56:11:25
I just want to say
I love that quote.

00:56:11:25 00:56:15:10
I think it embodies
what we've all been trying to say

00:56:15:10 00:56:16:29
is just be authentic,

00:56:16:29 00:56:21:15
and that everyone understands
that being authentic is important

00:56:21:15 00:56:24:18
and being authentic
doesn't just mean one thing.

00:56:25:01 00:56:26:29
I don't have a quote,

00:56:26:29 00:56:29:18
but it's just the word "authentic."

00:56:29:18 00:56:30:12
Yeah.

00:56:30:12 00:56:32:01
Thank you.
What about you, Nic?

00:56:32:01 00:56:35:03
I immediately go to the words
of Richard Wagamese,

00:56:36:06 00:56:40:11
whose books Embers,
Starlight and Medicine Walk

00:56:40:11 00:56:41:22
all mean a great deal to me.

00:56:42:23 00:56:46:09
He wrote something once, I think
there was a video on YouTube of it

00:56:46:09 00:56:50:09
about him talking about being dogwise,

00:56:51:05 00:56:54:01
learning about successful living
from his dog.

00:56:54:01 00:56:58:06
He says: "I'm 54 years old
and I've recently discovered

00:56:58:06 00:57:01:07
"that all I needed to know
about successful living,

00:57:01:07 00:57:02:19
"I can learn from my dog."

00:57:02:19 00:57:05:03
And then he goes to say
that she's wise

00:57:05:03 00:57:06:10
and that she's sage.

00:57:06:10 00:57:09:06
She eats regularly
when she's hungry.

00:57:09:06 00:57:11:14
She takes a good nap
every afternoon,

00:57:11:14 00:57:15:02
drinks lots of water,
stretches before doing anything,

00:57:15:16 00:57:17:25
and is never afraid
to express love

00:57:17:25 00:57:19:13
or ask for what she needs.

00:57:20:06 00:57:23:19
I think that that is exactly
in the realm of being mindful

00:57:23:19 00:57:27:13
and present and focusing
on the journey, not the destination.

00:57:28:27 00:57:31:22
I love that.
I think that's the perfect way

00:57:32:08 00:57:37:02
for us to end and leave
that with our listeners.

00:57:37:02 00:57:38:14
Thank you both.

00:57:38:14 00:57:42:13
I'm so grateful to have had
this moment with both of you.

00:57:42:13 00:57:46:15
It was an honour to get
to hold this conversation.

00:57:46:15 00:57:47:15
Thank you.

00:57:47:15 00:57:50:23
Thank you very much,
it was a real pleasure for me.

00:57:50:23 00:57:52:13
Thank you for creating this space.