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The podcast series Ensemble / All Together
is a corporate content produced by

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CBC & Radio-Canada Media Solutions,
Revenue Group.

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The views and opinions
expressed in this podcast

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are those of the speakers
and do not necessarily

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reflect the views or positions
of CBC & Radio-Canada Media Solutions.

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Hi, everyone. Welcome to our first
CBC English episode

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of Ensemble / All Together,

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a bilingual podcast series where we
aim to share, discuss and facilitate

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real and authentic conversations
in the space of DI

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and the media industry
from multiple perspectives,

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proudly brought to you
by the Media Solutions team

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at CBC and Radio-Canada.

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I'm Ruchika Bindra
and I'll be hosting this episode.

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I currently work in the world
of brand partnerships

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and custom sales
at CBC Media Solutions

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and have previously
lent my time on camera

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hosting a community show
across the GTA

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and being a host for a South-Asian
Canadian podcast series.

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My passion lies in having authentic
conversations that need to be shared

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and having all our voices unmuted.

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Joining me today are two impactful guests

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in the space of media and advertising

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who are going to help me dive deep
into some real conversations

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on today's episode:

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Where does the media industry stand
in the era of diversity and inclusion?

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My first guest today is Nick Davis.

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Nick was raised in Mississauga, Ontario

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and has worked in both radio,
television and print for over 33 years

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as a reporter, TV and radio host,

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covering everything
from current affairs to arts

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and has won many awards
for his work in journalism,

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including a 2006 Gabriel
for a story he did on Holly Jones.

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Nick has also lectured on journalism
at Ryerson University,

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Seneca College, Sheridan College
and Centennial College.

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Nick has been with us at CBC
for over 25 years,

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starting off as a national
reporter in sports,

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moved on to be then
a senior producer for Metro Morning,

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Toronto's local morning program,

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and then he went into program development,

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where he was responsible for
the ongoing development

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of local programming across the country.

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Nick then worked as the Director
of Engagement and Inclusion

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and currently is our Executive Director
of Equity and Inclusion at CBC.

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So welcome Nick.

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Our second guest today
is Kevin Johnson.

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Kevin Johnson grew up
in Etobicoke, Rexdale, Ontario

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and has held previous senior roles

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with both Havas and Carat,

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He has worked at Mediacom
for over 13 years,

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where he joined the GroupM agency
MediaCom in 2014,

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first as a Chief Client Officer,

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before being promoted to CEO
in less than a year.

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Kevin has been appointed CEO
of GroupM Canada since 2021,

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which made him among
the very first Black CEOs

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in the North American media
and marketing industry.

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In addition to leading GroupM's
operations within Canada,

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which include agencies like MindShare,
WaveMaker, EssenceMediacom,

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as well as programmatic
audience company Xaxis,

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Kevin also serves on GroupM's
North American leadership team.

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Kevin also supports charitable
organizations in Rexdale

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that help support and provide youth
in the Rexdale, North Etobicoke area.

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Welcome Nick and Kevin.
Hello, guys!

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Hello. Good to be here.

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Absolutely glad to be here.

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Thank you guys
for lending us your time, honestly.

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Well, you're welcome,
and thanks for having us.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Are you guys ready to get
into some real conversations

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about the media industry,

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where we're at
and where we need to be?

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Well, I don't know
if you're ready to hear it,

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That's the challenge.

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I think we need to become.
- Let's go.

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I think our audiences need to.

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I'm just gonna start,
you know, asking you both.

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Kevin, I'll start with you.

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What do you think
was the turning point

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or the moment where
the industry realized that

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representation needed to change
in the content we're producing?

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Is it a realization that the audience
won't just start

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for like, non-representative content?

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Where do you think these discussions
have started to get as real

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as they are in the last few years?

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Well, look, I think there's been
a number of things.

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Um, I believe that
the whole George Floyd incident

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definitely put a fire and lit things up

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in a different type of way.

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But I think that there are two
other things that really played a role.

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One is: you're seeing a lot of pressure
from the diverse community,

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particularly as we think
about content creators, producers.

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That whole segment
of our industry right now

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is really adding pressure

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to the industry itself
in order to get better.

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I think the other side of it

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that is pushing where we want
to get to quicker

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is the whole idea
of the effectiveness of content.

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Mhm.
- And so when you think about

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when we grew up...
- We?

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I'm saying "we" because I think
we grew up at the same time,

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but when we grew up,
we would look at ads coming in

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and there was no...
we were never pointing

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at the screen or listening to the radio
and saying to ourselves:

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They look like us.
- Yup.

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Or they sound like us.
- Right.

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We weren't represented
when it came to ads.

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But because data and insight

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is now driving
the effectiveness of content,

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we're able to see very quickly

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how consumers are connecting
with a particular piece of advertising.

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And that's really important because now,

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the effectiveness of content is driving

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who and where we're meeting
these individuals

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and so now we're seeing
that there is an appetite,

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an idea of making sure that we are
authentically connecting with content,

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and I think that's the other thing
that's driving this.

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It's fun you say that
about the advertising realm,

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like, Kevin knows my brother's
in that world too

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and he's been in that world
for a very long time.

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I remember the very first
commercial I saw,

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I remember it like it was yesterday,

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where there was a mixed couple,

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well at least, not a couple,

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but a Black woman and a White woman
in a commercial together,

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and it was in a car commercial.

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And it was Chevy.
Oh, what a feeling.

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It got so much,
I remember the commercial.

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Then the car comes up, on this bridge,

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it stops, the Chevy,
you don't know who's in the car,

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and then when it stops,
these two women jump out

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Then they go: "Chevy, what a feeling!"
And it's a Black woman

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and a White woman
and I'd thought like...

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Like, there's a Black woman in this ad!

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Like, it's still in my head to this day,

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and you're right,
and I can't imagine the fight

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that whoever created that ad

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had to have had back in the...
This was probably the late 80s,

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early 90s to get
that Black woman in that ad,

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because I never saw another one
for a very, very long time

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after that, you know what I mean?
- Yeah, yeah.

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And you're right, though.
I challenge you today to watch television

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and if you see an ad

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that doesn't have a person of colour
or a person with a disability

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in that ad.
Like, it's almost every ad

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that has mixed couples,
and you're right,

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and what is driving that is data.

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Like, you see now that if you put

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people who look like us in an ad,

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we're more prone to buy that product,

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or to visit that store,

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and it's so...
They can see it now,

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and so you're right,
so the world has changed and I think

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I would even say before George Floyd

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because George Floyd,
what the George Floyd incident did

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was to me, it gave a lot of people
a voice to speak up.

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You know it's interesting,

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but when I was at Mediacom,
we did a study

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and it was analyzing the effect
of the George Floyd movement,

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not just on the Black community,

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but the radicalized community.
- Yeah.

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Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Super interesting.

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And so what came out of that,

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it was really clear how
the radicalized community in totality,

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really rallied behind the Black community,

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because they too recognized
that this could be us.

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Yes.
- And all of the feelings that they had

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about our mistreatment,
about racism,

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all of that was coming up
and really rallied in that moment.

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And so the other piece
that came out was specifically

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the radicalized community in Canada
wasn't like the US,

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they weren't prepared to like,
just cancel a brand.

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But what they were willing to do is:

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"If you give me another option
or alternative,

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"I will take my business
and go somewhere else."

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And I think now,
Browns also know

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that there has to be
authentic representation.

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You know, you can't just checkmark

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putting somebody in because they have to,

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and I think that's still
the struggle, right?

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Of where do you fight tokenism
and make it real?

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Well, it's a really good point,

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and I will say though, even though,

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in spite of what's going on
in the world today,

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I still think there are people who...

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The gesture is still about making money,

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not about actually...
- Yeah, representation.

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... representation,
and in the process, though,

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I think we, as people of colour,
people from equity-deserving groups,

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we take advantage
of the opportunity in front of us.

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Like, I'm not...

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OK, whatever reason
you're going to put me here,

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I want to show that I'll
knock this thing out the park,

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and I'm gonna be so good at it
that you won't have to question anymore.

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But there's still a bit of that where...

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Yeah, we're doing it because
we're trying to be more inclusive.

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That's what we're trying to look at.
Make sure that we respect

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people who do
and that it's authentic.

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But even the attempt
at being authentic, to me,

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isn't done sometimes
for the right reasons.

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You know what I mean? And...

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But I don't care what reason,
why you're doing it.

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I'm suggesting that I would like
to take advantage of that

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and show you that
you may not have thought five years ago

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that I could be an Executive Director
at this company.

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This is also a new muscle.
- Yeah.

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Right? So we'll tick the checkbox

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until it happens so frequently

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that we get ourselves into
a running form.

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So I definitely don't think
that for a moment,

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we can be like:
OK, let's question the cause

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of why it's happening.

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We just have to get to a point
where we demonstrate the benefits...

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Yes.
- ... of it happening.

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100 percent.

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We're gonna tell better stories...
- Because we have data.

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Yeah.
- I mean, there is empirical data

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that shows, the more diverse
your organization is,

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the more successful it is.

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And in the advertising world,
that can't be more true.

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Of course.
- Because at the end of the day,

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we're telling stories around the people
that we are trying to connect with.

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It is the population
that we see in Canada.

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What does that look like?

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Every colour, every shade of skin,

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hundreds of different countries
that people have come from,

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and so surely, we must be able
to reflect that in order to

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be able to create these great stories

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that we need to share.

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One day, I was driving from work

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and at that point in my career,

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I had the opportunity to drive,

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you know, a nice luxury SUV,

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and I was on my way from work,

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I had a presentation that day
and I was in my suit,

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you know, feeling good about life.

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And perfect example of this,

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so a car drives just in front of me

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and there's a Black boy
playing with his toys

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in the backseat of the car.

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And our eyes just connect.

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And I saw the biggest grin
on this boy's face.

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And it was like, five, ten minutes

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that we were just looking
at each other

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and laughing and he was smiling,

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and you know,
the connection that we felt...

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You know, here I am talking about it
and I never said a word to the young man,

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but I could bet money
that he saw someone

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dressed a certain way
that he typically hadn't seen before.

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And I felt good because
I was adding something

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and he felt great because
he saw something.

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Maybe it was something, someone
that he wanted to be when he grew up.

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Like, I don't know what,
but it's that connection

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and idea of seeing someone
that looks like you

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in a position that is just...

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It's still very new for us
as children of immigrants.

00:13:07:19 00:13:08:16
Right.
- Yup.

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And that's where I want
to kind of dive a little bit deeper

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in both your childhoods,
because I know you both

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have come so far in your careers.

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It's an inspiration, so can you,
maybe Kevin and Nick,

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can you just share a little bit about

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how your childhood might have
impacted in some way

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kind of where you are today
and the work you do?

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Or maybe it doesn't,
I just want to know and understand.

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No, no, no! My childhood...

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I grew up in a very...

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I would call it a Black neighbourhood,

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the first Ontario housing
neighbourhood in Mississauga,

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and we didn't have a lot.

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I was often hungry.

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I mean, I remember the very first job
I tried to get was in the food industry,

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so I could get food,

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so I could literally eat,
I'm not even joking.

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My very first job at 15
at McDonald's.

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Like, I just needed to get a job
where I could eat

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because we just never had food, you know?

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I never went on a school trip.

00:13:59:16 00:14:01:14
This is, it's an unfair world,

00:14:01:14 00:14:05:01
and so how do I navigate
what I feel is a very unfair world?

00:14:05:01 00:14:07:15
My mom actually worked three jobs,
you know what I mean?

00:14:07:15 00:14:09:07
And so she was never around.

00:14:09:07 00:14:11:11
We literally had to raise ourselves,
you know what I mean?

00:14:11:11 00:14:13:18
Because she was never at home,
and when she was around,

00:14:13:18 00:14:14:22
she was tired.

00:14:14:22 00:14:16:26
And don't bother her,
because she's got to like,

00:14:16:26 00:14:18:14
get ready to go to this next job.

00:14:18:14 00:14:21:04
So you know, we learned really well
how to be self-sufficient

00:14:21:04 00:14:24:20
and how to fend for ourselves
and how to figure things out.

00:14:25:09 00:14:27:04
And those are the things that helped me

00:14:27:04 00:14:29:09
in my entire career,
all the way through.

00:14:30:08 00:14:34:20
There's so many different points
of commonality.

00:14:34:20 00:14:37:19
Um, single mom, single mom.

00:14:37:19 00:14:39:06
Um...

00:14:39:06 00:14:41:07
Family of five, family of five.

00:14:41:21 00:14:43:08
Um...

00:14:43:08 00:14:45:13
Government housing,
Ontario housing.

00:14:45:13 00:14:48:08
Yeah.
- Likewise, growing up in Rexdale.

00:14:48:26 00:14:50:02
Um...

00:14:50:02 00:14:51:15
It also strikes me...

00:14:52:28 00:14:56:29
as we talk about some of the challenges
that we've had to face,

00:14:56:29 00:14:59:21
as Black men,

00:14:59:21 00:15:06:00
how income and economics
play into that as well.

00:15:06:00 00:15:10:10
And there's an intersection
that's really interesting

00:15:10:10 00:15:12:09
when you think about, you know,

00:15:13:05 00:15:15:01
the colour of our skin,

00:15:15:01 00:15:17:13
and some of the challenges that we had

00:15:17:13 00:15:20:12
from a dollars and sense perspective

00:15:20:12 00:15:23:20
that really made things
really challenging.

00:15:24:20 00:15:32:15
I grew up and still am
in a very strong faith-leading home.

00:15:33:21 00:15:38:10
And I really struggled,
moving into Rexdale

00:15:38:10 00:15:41:18
and having to just do
whatever it took to survive,

00:15:42:08 00:15:46:02
and it was at odds with my faith.

00:15:46:02 00:15:46:28
Yeah.

00:15:46:28 00:15:50:28
Struggled, and I didn't have,
at that time,

00:15:51:23 00:15:56:19
a father that I could sit down
and try and figure this out.

00:15:57:09 00:16:00:21
And my mom too
worked multiple jobs.

00:16:00:21 00:16:04:16
So we were on the streets,
figuring it out.

00:16:04:16 00:16:08:14
Yeah.
- And there is not a lot of good

00:16:08:14 00:16:12:03
that can happen from a child
just being on the streets

00:16:12:03 00:16:14:04
without any guidance.

00:16:14:21 00:16:18:05
Where do you see brands now,
when they're working with you

00:16:18:05 00:16:20:03
or when you're kind of
working with brands,

00:16:20:03 00:16:22:03
what are the kind of
conversations you're seeing?

00:16:22:03 00:16:25:07
Are they looking at, you know,
selecting content,

00:16:25:07 00:16:28:00
or working with, you know,
publishers and broadcasters

00:16:28:00 00:16:30:09
that have that, or is it sort of
a reminder you're doing?

00:16:30:09 00:16:34:11
What is kind of the strategy
that you like to at least guide them to?

00:16:34:28 00:16:36:28
There's a lot of things that are...

00:16:36:28 00:16:39:04
a lot of good things
that are happening

00:16:39:04 00:16:42:09
at GroupM.

00:16:42:24 00:16:47:10
The first thing that we did
is we created a program,

00:16:47:10 00:16:49:27
a pledge, the 2%,

00:16:49:27 00:16:54:25
which is, we rallied our clients
and we said to all of them...

00:16:54:25 00:16:58:11
and just to think about the scale,
we're talking about

00:16:58:11 00:17:02:14
1.8 billion dollars
of advertising dollars

00:17:02:14 00:17:04:06
that we spend into the market.

00:17:04:06 00:17:05:27
So we went to all our clients and said:

00:17:05:27 00:17:10:08
Listen, we want to start spending
at a minimum 2%

00:17:10:27 00:17:16:25
specifically around Black-owned
and diverse media owners,

00:17:16:25 00:17:20:23
products, etc.
to help really get us

00:17:20:23 00:17:23:14
to that level that we should be,

00:17:23:14 00:17:25:15
that we're trying to work on right now.

00:17:25:15 00:17:27:15
It's actually called Launchpad.

00:17:27:15 00:17:32:14
And so what Launchpad is
is that we've created a program,

00:17:32:14 00:17:35:15
a 16, 12 to 16 week program,

00:17:35:15 00:17:37:01
we train them,

00:17:37:01 00:17:39:29
we pull people in
from diverse communities,

00:17:39:29 00:17:44:13
so the whole socio-economic thing
that we were just talking about,

00:17:44:13 00:17:47:02
and we train them,

00:17:47:02 00:17:49:18
and we give them a job
immediately after.

00:17:49:18 00:17:53:19
They stay within our organization
and start working

00:17:53:19 00:17:56:18
without one penny
out of their pocket.

00:17:56:18 00:17:58:04
That's amazing.
- That's amazing.

00:17:58:04 00:17:59:28
When we're talking to clients,

00:17:59:28 00:18:03:13
I would point to a great example
like Molson.

00:18:04:11 00:18:06:24
So Molson goes out
a couple years ago

00:18:06:24 00:18:09:28
and they do the seven languages of hockey.

00:18:09:28 00:18:10:22
Mhm.

00:18:11:15 00:18:13:13
So, for those who don't know,

00:18:13:13 00:18:18:03
they've taken the seven
most prominent languages in Canada

00:18:18:03 00:18:21:26
and they create a broadcast
for Hockey Night in Canada.

00:18:21:26 00:18:23:28
And so now you're hearing Cantonese,

00:18:23:28 00:18:26:05
you're hearing all of these
different languages

00:18:26:05 00:18:30:02
that are truly reflective of who we are.

00:18:30:02 00:18:31:29
And you think about
who watched hockey.

00:18:31:29 00:18:33:07
Everyone watches hockey.

00:18:33:07 00:18:37:08
I grew up as a Jamaican home,

00:18:37:08 00:18:40:27
shovelling snow and running in
with the firewood

00:18:40:27 00:18:42:22
to watch Hockey Night in Canada.

00:18:42:22 00:18:44:10
It is who we are.

00:18:44:10 00:18:47:24
And so I think when we move out
of the box like Molson has

00:18:47:24 00:18:51:19
and really thinks about
who they're speaking to,

00:18:51:19 00:18:53:10
that's powerful, that's real,

00:18:53:10 00:18:55:13
enough that we can talk about it today.

00:18:56:05 00:18:58:10
Nick, what about you?
The kind of work you champion

00:18:58:10 00:19:00:21
and the work you do,
what you want to see more of

00:19:00:21 00:19:03:10
or what you are proud of
where you've come so far

00:19:03:10 00:19:06:22
in pioneering and championing
certain changes, I guess.

00:19:06:22 00:19:09:10
Well, I mean, around seven years ago,

00:19:09:10 00:19:11:07
we started a program called DEL,

00:19:11:07 00:19:13:09
the first emerging leaders program at CBC.

00:19:13:09 00:19:16:04
I'm super proud of it,
I started it when I was in news,

00:19:16:04 00:19:18:09
and the idea was we were trying to

00:19:18:09 00:19:22:02
try to find a way in which
we could create a pool of people

00:19:22:02 00:19:23:22
who our team manager could say:

00:19:23:22 00:19:25:15
"Hey, those are people
who have leadership training

00:19:25:15 00:19:26:24
"and leadership potential."

00:19:26:24 00:19:29:06
Because when you look
at our company,

00:19:29:06 00:19:32:08
which is, you know,
a very diverse company,

00:19:33:03 00:19:35:04
you rarely see that
at the leadership level.

00:19:35:04 00:19:38:10
When you get to a certain level,
it just kind of stops being

00:19:38:10 00:19:41:05
as reflective or as representative
and the question was why.

00:19:41:05 00:19:43:12
And so when we looked
at some leadership programs

00:19:43:12 00:19:45:12
that were being offered here,

00:19:45:12 00:19:47:09
first you had to be selected by a manager

00:19:47:09 00:19:48:19
to go into a leadership program,

00:19:48:19 00:19:49:26
like those particular ones,

00:19:49:26 00:19:51:16
to get into the higher levels
of leadership.

00:19:52:04 00:19:55:13
And there weren't enough people
from equity-deserving groups

00:19:55:13 00:19:56:23
who actually held those positions,

00:19:56:23 00:19:58:19
seemed to be selected
to go to these leadership programs

00:19:58:19 00:20:00:20
so they could actually become
senior leaders in the company.

00:20:01:18 00:20:02:27
And so we thought that was a problem.

00:20:02:27 00:20:04:26
So we audited all the leadership programs,

00:20:04:26 00:20:06:25
me and a woman named Sandra Porteous,

00:20:07:08 00:20:09:05
and we realized that
there were very few people

00:20:09:28 00:20:11:16
of equity-deserving groups
in the 80s programs,

00:20:11:16 00:20:13:12
so we created one called DEL,

00:20:13:12 00:20:17:18
and it wasn't met with a lot of love
when we first presented it, at all,

00:20:17:18 00:20:20:17
and people thought it was wrong
and that we were

00:20:20:17 00:20:23:13
now excluding other people
from leadership courses,

00:20:23:13 00:20:25:16
so we had to get past all that.

00:20:26:02 00:20:28:29
But in the end, you know,
after seven years of it,

00:20:28:29 00:20:32:09
and seeing so many of the people
who've gone through the program

00:20:32:09 00:20:35:15
sitting in leadership chairs
in this company,

00:20:35:15 00:20:38:14
I think it did well for us,
in company terms,

00:20:38:14 00:20:40:21
of at least identifying potential leaders.

00:20:40:21 00:20:42:15
Now, not everybody
who goes through the program

00:20:43:06 00:20:45:19
becomes a leader
and that's not the intent of it.

00:20:46:04 00:20:49:21
The intent of it is to get rid
of the excuse that there's no people here

00:20:49:21 00:20:51:22
who are good enough to be leaders
from those groups,

00:20:51:22 00:20:54:15
and I think we've done that,
and I think it's one of those programs

00:20:54:15 00:20:55:26
that I'm super proud of

00:20:55:26 00:20:57:21
and the other program
that I'm really proud of

00:20:57:21 00:20:59:25
is a program called Inclusive Newsrooms.

00:20:59:25 00:21:01:09
It came from one of the women

00:21:01:09 00:21:04:12
who ran the Montreal shop,
her name was Helen Henderson.

00:21:04:26 00:21:07:21
And the woman who ran
the Ottawa shop at the time,

00:21:07:21 00:21:10:20
she's now the Senior Managing
Director of Ontario,

00:21:10:20 00:21:13:00
a woman named Ruth Zowdu,
a Black woman,

00:21:13:00 00:21:15:21
and Helen was a White woman
and they said

00:21:15:21 00:21:18:08
that in both their shops,
which were very reflective

00:21:18:08 00:21:19:29
of their audiences
in terms of who worked there,

00:21:21:04 00:21:24:21
somehow, their voices weren't
represented in stories.

00:21:24:21 00:21:26:02
There was little inclusion.

00:21:26:02 00:21:28:10
They thought we had lots
of representation and no inclusion.

00:21:28:10 00:21:30:06
And again, the reason why,
it was that they felt

00:21:30:06 00:21:31:27
that in the leadership roles in news,

00:21:31:27 00:21:33:24
the people who decided what stories
we were going to cover

00:21:33:24 00:21:35:09
and how we were going
to cover them,

00:21:35:09 00:21:38:09
Helen said to me: "There's no people
of colour in that room."

00:21:38:27 00:21:40:07
And she said:

00:21:40:07 00:21:41:20
"So, we can't get rid of them all,

00:21:41:20 00:21:43:26
"but can we all teach them
the value of inclusion?"

00:21:43:26 00:21:46:07
So we created the program
called Inclusive Newsrooms.

00:21:46:07 00:21:50:03
Those programs are designed
to help senior news leaders...

00:21:50:03 00:21:51:01
Yeah.

00:21:51:01 00:21:53:27
... understand what inclusion is,

00:21:53:27 00:21:56:18
so it's not representation,
what inclusion is,

00:21:56:18 00:21:59:02
which is where we have
people at the table

00:21:59:02 00:22:00:16
who are making those decisions

00:22:00:16 00:22:02:08
and that their decisions
and their thoughts

00:22:02:08 00:22:04:28
are being respected,
taken seriously,

00:22:04:28 00:22:07:02
and it's valued, it's wanted,

00:22:07:02 00:22:08:21
and it's actually showing up
on airings,

00:22:08:21 00:22:09:25
And when we did...

00:22:09:25 00:22:11:23
Montreal was the very first group
to go through it.

00:22:12:06 00:22:15:13
The changed, in the space of a year,

00:22:16:03 00:22:18:03
of how they told stories
was remarkable.

00:22:18:24 00:22:21:06
And it reminds me how powerful

00:22:21:06 00:22:24:13
moving from the idea of mentorship,

00:22:24:13 00:22:28:10
where you're kind of inspiring
and then walking away,

00:22:29:05 00:22:30:20
to sponsorship.

00:22:30:20 00:22:31:14
Mhm.

00:22:31:14 00:22:35:14
And I didn't actually know
what the difference was.

00:22:35:14 00:22:37:24
I thought they were the same, actually,

00:22:37:24 00:22:43:04
until we, our parent company, WPP,

00:22:43:04 00:22:48:07
had a sponsorship,
a group that they were sponsoring.

00:22:48:07 00:22:53:00
And so my role was to sponsor
a woman of colour.

00:22:53:00 00:22:53:22
Mhm.

00:22:53:22 00:22:56:24
And so, what really impressed me

00:22:56:24 00:23:00:01
is the idea of sponsorship.
It was no longer:

00:23:00:01 00:23:02:00
Hey, listen, you can do it.

00:23:02:00 00:23:03:08
I'm here for you.

00:23:03:08 00:23:06:04
Here is what I would do,

00:23:06:04 00:23:08:28
and hey, listen,
maybe I'll see you sometime.

00:23:08:28 00:23:10:03
Best of luck.

00:23:10:03 00:23:13:20
And so once I signed up,
I was just like: whoa.

00:23:13:20 00:23:15:09
I'm accountable. How do we...

00:23:15:09 00:23:17:12
Now it was like, OK,
how do we make this happen?

00:23:18:07 00:23:19:23
Right? And so...

00:23:20:18 00:23:26:28
I think if we can employ
more of those type of ideas

00:23:26:28 00:23:30:02
across the industry,

00:23:31:18 00:23:34:04
then you really have a bunch of people,

00:23:34:04 00:23:38:10
individuals, who are truly
committed to change

00:23:38:10 00:23:42:02
and getting someone from A to B.

00:23:42:02 00:23:45:16
And ideally, B is a management position

00:23:45:16 00:23:48:28
so that we can begin to tackle
some of that challenge

00:23:48:28 00:23:51:20
of not seeing it at a certain level,

00:23:51:20 00:23:53:20
which we too face.
- Yeah.

00:23:53:20 00:23:57:01
How we start tackling
some of those challenges.

00:23:57:01 00:23:59:02
So well said.
I remember when I entered DEL,

00:23:59:02 00:24:00:11
I was like: What's it gonna be like?

00:24:00:11 00:24:01:22
You don't know, you're like:

00:24:01:22 00:24:04:17
Is it a session where you're all
just talking about problems?

00:24:04:17 00:24:06:00
And I walked out of that.

00:24:06:19 00:24:08:23
It was so emotional,
because you were listening

00:24:08:23 00:24:10:21
to everyone in your life:
"Oh, you felt it too.

00:24:10:21 00:24:12:10
"Oh, that happened to you too."

00:24:12:10 00:24:15:05
But it wasn't: OK, let's put
everybody in a crying session.

00:24:15:05 00:24:17:05
It was: You still have a voice.

00:24:17:05 00:24:19:18
This is what you need to do
as a leader to find your voice.

00:24:19:18 00:24:22:04
Your experience in your childhood
brought you to it.

00:24:22:04 00:24:25:01
How do you get there?
And the relationships you made.

00:24:25:01 00:24:28:11
It's like, you made a community
with people across Canada

00:24:28:11 00:24:30:27
that were all willing to be there
for each other.

00:24:30:27 00:24:33:20
And I think programs like this
or support,

00:24:33:20 00:24:35:07
or you know, the Launchpad,

00:24:35:07 00:24:36:23
it's so needed.
- Yeah.

00:24:36:23 00:24:40:08
It's so needed to feel like
there is a light in the tunnel for me.

00:24:40:08 00:24:44:11
Yeah, and I think the reality is
that we also need to share that

00:24:45:05 00:24:46:17
it doesn't stop.

00:24:46:17 00:24:48:04
Well, where would you find your peer?

00:24:48:04 00:24:52:14
Where is the other Black CEO male
in this country

00:24:52:14 00:24:55:12
who you can sit there
and commiserate with and talk?

00:24:55:12 00:24:57:26
So it's like I used to do
with the host, right?

00:24:57:26 00:24:59:20
Like the host of a radio show.

00:24:59:20 00:25:02:09
I'm remembering Matt Galloway
got the job hosting Metro Morning.

00:25:02:09 00:25:03:07
You know what I mean?

00:25:03:07 00:25:05:15
Black men, hosting the show,

00:25:05:15 00:25:06:28
largest show in the country,

00:25:06:28 00:25:08:08
and you saw him say to me,

00:25:08:08 00:25:10:03
he would come to my desk
and talk to me every day,

00:25:10:03 00:25:13:08
and I'm like: OK, well, what's up?

00:25:13:08 00:25:15:07
Then he goes, but he really
had no one to talk to,

00:25:15:07 00:25:17:00
he had no one who he could relate to,

00:25:17:00 00:25:18:09
who's been through
what he's been through,

00:25:18:09 00:25:20:21
who can experience what he experienced,
understand what he's going through.

00:25:20:21 00:25:22:19
And so I always ask people like yourself,

00:25:22:19 00:25:23:23
like I used to ask Matt:

00:25:23:23 00:25:25:05
Where do you find that?

00:25:25:05 00:25:26:29
Because it is lonely.

00:25:26:29 00:25:28:07
Like, trust me, I know.

00:25:29:13 00:25:32:04
People ask, many times:

00:25:33:09 00:25:34:11
"Where's your mentor?"

00:25:36:07 00:25:37:27
I didn't have one.
- Hmm?

00:25:37:27 00:25:40:01
And I think that there are
two parts of that.

00:25:41:09 00:25:42:12
One is:

00:25:44:22 00:25:47:04
There were none.
Period. End of story.

00:25:53:12 00:25:56:18
Nick, how do you measure the success
of an EDI initiative?

00:25:56:18 00:25:58:03
Like, are there key metrics?

00:25:58:03 00:26:00:21
Or how do you look at it and say:
"OK, this is working"?

00:26:01:22 00:26:04:16
Well, it all depends on what
one is working on.

00:26:04:16 00:26:06:29
So first thing I'm trying
to get my team to understand

00:26:07:18 00:26:10:16
that we're not doing projects,

00:26:10:16 00:26:12:12
we're trying to do systemic change,

00:26:12:12 00:26:14:05
we're trying to do structural change.

00:26:14:05 00:26:17:00
And so if the project
has a beginning and an end,

00:26:17:00 00:26:18:20
it's very easy to measure metrics.
- Right.

00:26:18:20 00:26:22:21
So when you think about
something like... DEL.

00:26:23:04 00:26:24:10
OK?

00:26:24:10 00:26:26:03
People tell me that the metric is,

00:26:26:03 00:26:28:01
well, did these people
get jobs as leaders?

00:26:28:01 00:26:30:03
And I said: Well, that wasn't
the intention of the program.

00:26:30:03 00:26:31:22
So how do you measure success?

00:26:31:22 00:26:34:13
My measure of success in a program
for something like DEL

00:26:34:13 00:26:35:25
is when we get our...

00:26:35:25 00:26:38:03
at the end of the program
when we hear back from the participants,

00:26:38:03 00:26:39:13
we talk to their bosses,

00:26:39:13 00:26:41:17
we found out if they've been
more productive in the workplace,

00:26:41:17 00:26:44:29
if they've been useful in terms
of helping move that group

00:26:44:29 00:26:47:16
forward in the way it thinks
about the work that we're doing.

00:26:47:16 00:26:49:05
Has the person developed personally?

00:26:49:05 00:26:52:14
Have they found their voice
to advocate and speak for themselves?

00:26:53:00 00:26:55:02
That, to me, is successful. OK?

00:26:55:02 00:26:56:24
If they get a job as a leader,

00:26:56:24 00:26:59:12
that's a bonus, because,
and I say to them:

00:26:59:27 00:27:02:15
Well, how do you measure success
in the other leadership programs here?

00:27:02:15 00:27:04:09
Is it because people get jobs or not?

00:27:04:09 00:27:06:07
Or do you even ask that question?

00:27:06:07 00:27:08:12
And I found out that
they don't ask that question.

00:27:08:12 00:27:10:13
They only ask it of our program.

00:27:10:13 00:27:12:16
Because there always seems
to be a higher bar

00:27:13:16 00:27:14:24
for programs like ours.

00:27:14:24 00:27:16:28
Like somehow:
"Well, we gotta find out."

00:27:16:28 00:27:18:12
Well, yeah.

00:27:18:12 00:27:20:00
And then, when they actually
go look at the metrics

00:27:20:00 00:27:23:27
to see who's gotten promoted
or elevated their position,

00:27:23:27 00:27:26:00
well, it's over 6,000 people
who went through DEL

00:27:26:00 00:27:27:13
hadn't been promoted.

00:27:27:13 00:27:29:12
But that's actually not
our measure of success.

00:27:29:12 00:27:32:14
Our measure of success is
have we developed that person

00:27:32:14 00:27:35:00
in a way in which they go back to work

00:27:35:00 00:27:36:10
where they're working,

00:27:36:10 00:27:37:23
feel better about who they are,

00:27:37:23 00:27:39:10
can advocate for themselves?

00:27:39:10 00:27:40:26
Have they built a network of people

00:27:40:26 00:27:42:17
who can support them
in their own development?

00:27:42:17 00:27:45:07
And if we can answer yes to that,
then it's been successful.

00:27:45:07 00:27:46:00
OK.

00:27:46:00 00:27:47:25
Yeah, I think for us,

00:27:47:25 00:27:50:09
there are a couple of things at play here.

00:27:50:09 00:27:55:10
One is the result of Launchpad

00:27:55:10 00:27:57:14
and being able to have, you know,

00:27:57:14 00:28:00:04
I think the number now is 35.

00:28:00:04 00:28:01:27
This program was started last year,

00:28:01:27 00:28:06:02
have 35 individuals working
and building their career,

00:28:06:02 00:28:09:29
actively building their career
is a great stat in itself.

00:28:09:29 00:28:13:10
I think the fact that we are
working towards,

00:28:13:10 00:28:15:27
as the 2% pledge,

00:28:15:27 00:28:19:21
you're talking about potentially
400 million dollars

00:28:19:21 00:28:24:16
invested into diverse-owned media.

00:28:24:16 00:28:28:11
I think when you move away from that
into our organization,

00:28:28:11 00:28:34:16
we are still working, admittedly,
around specific metrics

00:28:34:16 00:28:36:12
we are looking at,

00:28:36:12 00:28:39:13
but they're not gonna be soft,
and I can promise you that,

00:28:39:13 00:28:42:14
because we're not celebrating

00:28:42:14 00:28:46:17
over the fact that we already have
a very diverse organization.

00:28:46:17 00:28:47:17
It should be.

00:28:47:17 00:28:48:17
Yes.
- Absolutely.

00:28:48:17 00:28:50:21
What we need to get excited about,

00:28:50:21 00:28:53:15
and you mentioned this earlier, Nicky,

00:28:53:15 00:28:56:01
is I want to be at the point,

00:28:56:01 00:28:59:26
at some point, our organization
can stand up and proudly say

00:29:00:16 00:29:04:08
that our executive team
and our leadership teams

00:29:04:08 00:29:07:27
reflect the population of Canada

00:29:07:27 00:29:10:15
in terms of its diversity
and we're not there yet.

00:29:10:15 00:29:12:28
We're working on it,
but we're not there yet.

00:29:12:28 00:29:14:28
And I'll even add to that, OK?

00:29:14:28 00:29:17:13
Around, let's say,
something like the program

00:29:17:13 00:29:20:12
that Kevin is talking about, right?

00:29:20:12 00:29:22:12
His Launchpad program
and then our DEL program

00:29:22:12 00:29:24:07
where we're trying to
build better leaders.

00:29:25:11 00:29:26:23
Is it successful, putting them there?

00:29:26:23 00:29:28:27
Or is it successful for them
to be there for a long time

00:29:28:27 00:29:32:23
and then keep the door open for others,
because the piece is we open our tent

00:29:33:05 00:29:34:25
to allow more people in,

00:29:34:25 00:29:36:26
but how are we supporting those people
once they get there?

00:29:36:26 00:29:37:14
Right.

00:29:37:14 00:29:40:16
Like, how are we supporting
that next Black woman

00:29:40:16 00:29:42:09
or that South-Asian woman

00:29:42:09 00:29:45:06
who you have now gotten
an opportunity through Launchpad,

00:29:45:06 00:29:47:13
to get a really good job percentage.
- It's really tough.

00:29:47:13 00:29:49:03
And it's because you aren't there.

00:29:49:03 00:29:50:11
Like, you're not.

00:29:50:11 00:29:53:02
And how do we support them?
Are we building the support mechanisms?

00:29:53:02 00:29:55:28
So some people say it's successful,
this person got that job,

00:29:55:28 00:29:58:14
and I'll say: Well, it's only successful
if they not only got the job,

00:29:58:14 00:30:01:19
but they stay in the job,
and that somehow benefited.

00:30:01:19 00:30:02:22
And so how are we supporting them?

00:30:02:22 00:30:05:03
And I know we put sometimes
leaders of colour

00:30:05:03 00:30:07:29
and people with disabilities
in positions to lead,

00:30:07:29 00:30:10:01
and we always put them
in a position to fail,

00:30:10:01 00:30:12:05
because we have not built
the supports around them

00:30:12:05 00:30:14:04
because the person above them

00:30:14:04 00:30:16:12
thinks they only got the job
because they're a person of colour.

00:30:16:12 00:30:19:16
Nick, I do believe that this is also
about checkboxes

00:30:19:16 00:30:21:13
and in a good way, this time.
- Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

00:30:21:13 00:30:23:11
Because here's the thing:

00:30:23:11 00:30:27:21
I mean, there are so many layers in that.

00:30:27:21 00:30:29:22
There's so much work to be done.

00:30:29:22 00:30:31:21
Can I just say one more thing about...
- Absolutely, Nicky.

00:30:31:21 00:30:33:09
... like, systemic change?

00:30:33:09 00:30:36:00
And that type of change
you're trying to make?

00:30:36:00 00:30:39:02
Because it happens
kind of in the background

00:30:39:02 00:30:41:28
and people on the floor
don't feel it quickly,

00:30:41:28 00:30:43:16
so they think you're not doing anything.

00:30:44:05 00:30:46:09
But I will say this about systemic change,

00:30:46:09 00:30:49:07
that it's about behavioural change
and it's about culture change.

00:30:49:07 00:30:51:26
And if you try to measure
the metrics on that,

00:30:51:26 00:30:53:09
that's so hard to measure,

00:30:53:09 00:30:54:16
because it's just...

00:30:54:16 00:30:57:29
So we've tried to create a tool
to help measure behavioural change.

00:30:58:17 00:31:00:05
I think it's pretty rudimentary.

00:31:00:05 00:31:02:07
We've used it a few times.

00:31:02:07 00:31:04:26
Especially in the Inclusive Newsrooms,
we've used it a couple times.

00:31:05:10 00:31:07:28
And it's good. It's a good tool.

00:31:09:21 00:31:11:23
But until our culture changes...

00:31:11:23 00:31:13:04
Yeah.
- OK?

00:31:13:04 00:31:14:28
Very rarely will behaviour change

00:31:14:28 00:31:16:13
because when you
have cultural change,

00:31:16:13 00:31:17:18
people now have
to be accountable.

00:31:17:18 00:31:20:08
We have to agree that this is
how we are going to interact together.

00:31:20:08 00:31:21:21
This is how we're gonna behave together.

00:31:21:21 00:31:23:09
These are kind of the rules

00:31:23:09 00:31:25:08
of participation in this particular group.

00:31:26:01 00:31:27:16
Guys, we've been talking so much,

00:31:27:16 00:31:30:10
and there's a question
I was holding until the end

00:31:30:10 00:31:33:00
because, you know,
I smile when I say it,

00:31:33:00 00:31:35:13
but I'm sure you both have heard
this word a lot in your positions:

00:31:35:13 00:31:36:17
EDI fatigue.

00:31:37:05 00:31:38:05
So, you know...

00:31:40:01 00:31:42:20
Nick, now we're hearing this word coming

00:31:43:06 00:31:45:22
that oh, EDI fatigue is a real thing.

00:31:45:22 00:31:49:12
People in certain companies
across different organizations,

00:31:49:12 00:31:52:07
different industries, feel there's
a sense of EDI fatigue coming

00:31:52:07 00:31:54:18
and extra-hyper-focus on this.

00:31:54:18 00:31:57:06
And then there's someone like me
who's like: We just started!

00:31:57:06 00:31:58:11
Yeah.
- You know?

00:31:58:11 00:32:00:18
So where do you,
especially in your role

00:32:00:18 00:32:02:14
in the Equity Diversion Group,

00:32:02:14 00:32:05:08
how do you tackle this?
Do you hear it a lot?

00:32:05:08 00:32:08:29
Well, I hear it,
and it's not said that way

00:32:08:29 00:32:11:17
that we're tired of doing
work in this space

00:32:11:17 00:32:12:26
of Equity and Inclusion.

00:32:12:26 00:32:14:25
It's said in different ways, like...

00:32:15:18 00:32:17:09
I'll give you an example. So...

00:32:18:18 00:32:21:20
There's some big companies
last year that made cuts.

00:32:21:20 00:32:24:14
Like there's Amazon and all
these huge companies that made cuts.

00:32:25:04 00:32:27:20
And where do you think
the first place they cut was?

00:32:28:11 00:32:30:00
They cut the work in the space.

00:32:30:00 00:32:35:15
A lot of Equity
and Inclusion professionals

00:32:35:15 00:32:37:27
lost a lot of their jobs
in the last quarter

00:32:37:27 00:32:41:03
because, they don't say it, but it's...

00:32:41:24 00:32:44:19
"Well, we don't need this anymore."
Or if our budgets are too tight,

00:32:44:19 00:32:46:08
since this is extra work...

00:32:46:08 00:32:48:08
Right.
- ... we don't need to do it anymore.

00:32:48:08 00:32:50:00
Then you hear it when they're saying,

00:32:50:00 00:32:52:22
in the way people say:
"I don't have time to do the work.

00:32:53:16 00:32:55:01
"It's involved."
And I'm going:

00:32:55:29 00:32:58:27
Well, it is the work,
so I don't understand what you mean.

00:32:58:27 00:33:00:26
And so someone said to me,
the other day:

00:33:00:26 00:33:04:08
"Well, I don't have time to do that
because I'm too busy doing this."

00:33:04:08 00:33:06:00
Whatever it was they're doing
putting together the news.

00:33:06:14 00:33:08:12
And I said: But how are you
putting together the news

00:33:08:12 00:33:10:10
and not doing it through a lens
of Equity and Inclusion?

00:33:10:10 00:33:12:26
So I'm not asking you to do five stories,

00:33:13:24 00:33:16:01
I want you to do the same
four stories you do every day,

00:33:16:01 00:33:17:22
but I want you to do
those same four stories

00:33:17:22 00:33:19:15
through a lens of Equity and Inclusion.

00:33:19:15 00:33:21:14
So I'm not giving you extra work.

00:33:21:14 00:33:23:23
But when they say that,
the reason is they're tired of hearing it.

00:33:23:23 00:33:25:20
That's the way of doing it.
- Gotcha.

00:33:25:20 00:33:27:15
They don't say: "I hate the work."

00:33:27:15 00:33:29:03
You know what I mean?
Or when they say...

00:33:30:11 00:33:31:29
like what someone told me the other day:

00:33:33:00 00:33:35:27
"I think we're good,
I think we've got this,

00:33:35:27 00:33:38:11
"and I think down pat,
and we're good.

00:33:38:23 00:33:41:06
"I don't think we need any work
in this space anymore,

00:33:41:06 00:33:43:06
"and so I'm going to redirect
my efforts into something else."

00:33:43:26 00:33:44:26
And I say: Really?

00:33:44:26 00:33:47:09
OK, well, what do you mean?
Tell me an example of what good is.

00:33:48:01 00:33:50:07
And they try and explain it to me
and I'm going: OK, well,

00:33:50:19 00:33:51:16
that's not good.

00:33:52:09 00:33:53:14
Like, this is not good.

00:33:53:14 00:33:55:16
But I understand, though,

00:33:55:16 00:33:57:09
for people who have never...

00:33:57:09 00:33:58:28
Because we are focused on this work,

00:33:58:28 00:34:01:21
and we've been very focused
on this work in the past 3 or 4 years.

00:34:01:21 00:34:03:28
We know that because
the industry has grown.

00:34:03:28 00:34:08:09
The opportunities to do great jobs
in this field have grown.

00:34:08:09 00:34:11:13
Lots of more funding and budgeting
has been thrown behind initiatives

00:34:11:13 00:34:13:07
to make their companies more inclusive.

00:34:13:07 00:34:15:10
Absolutely, even here at CBC,
we know that.

00:34:15:10 00:34:16:19
And so we know it's grown.

00:34:16:19 00:34:18:21
And of course, it's again that thinking

00:34:18:21 00:34:21:01
where people think
because I'm focusing on this,

00:34:21:01 00:34:22:27
that somehow I'm ignoring that.

00:34:22:27 00:34:24:11
And I say: No, it's not.

00:34:24:11 00:34:26:02
Because in my world,

00:34:26:02 00:34:27:15
in Equity and Inclusion,

00:34:27:15 00:34:29:29
there's something
that's happening in that space

00:34:29:29 00:34:31:28
that requires us to put focus on it.

00:34:31:28 00:34:33:08
It is a new muscle,

00:34:33:08 00:34:34:25
as we said before.
- Yeah.

00:34:34:25 00:34:37:15
And I think we also need to educate

00:34:38:21 00:34:42:15
that group and remind them
why we're doing it

00:34:43:10 00:34:46:03
and what it means
and what it doesn't mean,

00:34:46:03 00:34:47:21
to a point.
- Yes.

00:34:48:16 00:34:55:26
And recently, we had the conversation
about DE&I versus anything else.

00:34:55:26 00:34:56:16
Mhm.

00:34:56:16 00:35:00:04
And the understanding
that if you start with Inclusion,

00:35:01:05 00:35:04:02
Equity and Diversity happens.

00:35:04:02 00:35:05:27
Of course it does, yeah.

00:35:05:27 00:35:08:04
And I think it's really important because

00:35:08:04 00:35:12:21
many organizations are still
in the DE&I space,

00:35:13:14 00:35:15:27
when in fact, if you started with I,

00:35:16:25 00:35:20:27
that's all, and therefore,
you are beginning to build

00:35:20:27 00:35:24:08
and do some work
around Equity and Diversity.

00:35:24:08 00:35:25:20
I'll even tell you this.

00:35:25:20 00:35:26:21
I don't even...

00:35:26:21 00:35:29:24
I took the word "diversity"
out of our title of our department,

00:35:30:08 00:35:31:20
intentionally.

00:35:31:20 00:35:33:06
Because when you say "diversity,"

00:35:33:06 00:35:35:07
they think you're only talking
about people of colour.

00:35:35:07 00:35:37:12
Interesting.
- When I say "diversity,"

00:35:37:12 00:35:39:05
I'm talking about White people...
- Everybody.

00:35:39:05 00:35:40:29
... Black people,
people with disabilities,

00:35:40:29 00:35:44:03
people from the LGBT2Q2+ community.

00:35:44:03 00:35:45:26
I'm thinking about everybody.

00:35:45:26 00:35:48:16
But every time you use that word,
it's kind of code now

00:35:48:16 00:35:51:00
for people of colour.
- Right.

00:35:51:00 00:35:52:17
And I'm saying: No, that's unfair.

00:35:52:17 00:35:54:24
So that's why I say
it's about Equity and Inclusion.

00:35:54:24 00:35:59:03
I'm not actually allowing you
to use the D word in my title anymore

00:35:59:03 00:36:02:03
because you're right,
we get focused on that

00:36:02:03 00:36:04:00
and we actually...

00:36:04:00 00:36:06:18
The point we need to work around
is Inclusion.

00:36:06:18 00:36:09:19
And where people feel valued here,
feel like they belong here,

00:36:09:19 00:36:11:28
and they're gonna tell their friends
it's a great place to work.

00:36:11:28 00:36:13:05
It's really got to happen.

00:36:13:05 00:36:14:17
Then when we value people,

00:36:14:17 00:36:16:01
they get promotions
they're supposed to get,

00:36:16:01 00:36:17:16
...

00:36:17:16 00:36:18:27
and everything is better.

00:36:18:27 00:36:21:19
And we need to get to that space
and we are a long way

00:36:21:19 00:36:23:03
to go as a company,

00:36:23:03 00:36:25:14
where we can call ourselves
truly an inclusive company.

00:36:25:14 00:36:28:02
Of course we have inclusion
in spots and pockets, of course.

00:36:28:02 00:36:29:05
Right across the country.

00:36:29:05 00:36:31:11
But to be truly inclusive as a company,

00:36:31:11 00:36:32:22
we have a ways to go.

00:36:32:22 00:36:34:01
Does the work ever end?

00:36:34:21 00:36:36:14
No.
- Well, I don't think...

00:36:36:14 00:36:38:22
I wish I lived in a world, you know,

00:36:39:24 00:36:41:29
where my department didn't exist.

00:36:41:29 00:36:42:25
Yup.

00:36:43:12 00:36:46:22
We should be in a world
where we always care about people

00:36:46:22 00:36:49:24
and we value people
and we understand the value

00:36:49:24 00:36:51:28
of having different lived experiences
at the table.

00:36:51:28 00:36:54:14
We understand the value
of telling other people's stories.

00:36:54:14 00:36:55:29
I wish we lived in that space.

00:36:55:29 00:36:57:02
But I think...

00:36:57:02 00:36:59:14
But I think our intent...

00:37:00:26 00:37:02:03
We meant well.

00:37:03:06 00:37:07:09
But I think what you're feeling now,

00:37:07:09 00:37:08:04
the fatigue,

00:37:09:06 00:37:14:03
is primarily based off the fact
that we went into the D

00:37:14:03 00:37:17:12
right away, and not the I.
- Without just Inclusion.

00:37:17:12 00:37:19:24
Yeah.
- Right? Like, it should have been:

00:37:20:09 00:37:21:26
Hey, listen.

00:37:21:26 00:37:24:12
We want to be more inclusive,

00:37:24:12 00:37:28:20
and that means for this group
that is maybe in the corner,

00:37:28:20 00:37:30:18
that needs a little bit more love,

00:37:30:18 00:37:32:28
we're gonna call them to the front.

00:37:32:28 00:37:34:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- You know what I mean?

00:37:34:00 00:37:36:04
I know exactly what you mean.
- Versus:

00:37:36:04 00:37:39:04
Hey, we're gonna give a million dollars
to the Black community.

00:37:39:04 00:37:40:06
Yes.

00:37:40:06 00:37:43:14
That's why we're feeling
the fatigue right now.

00:37:43:14 00:37:45:09
Or we're gonna run another program

00:37:45:09 00:37:47:01
where people feel excluded from it.

00:37:47:01 00:37:49:14
You know, like, where
my White counterparts feel like:

00:37:49:14 00:37:51:07
"Well, why can't I apply to DEL?"

00:37:51:07 00:37:52:11
Yeah.
- And I'm like:

00:37:52:11 00:37:53:16
It's a very good question.

00:37:53:16 00:37:56:17
But actually don't have a problem
with White leaders in this company.

00:37:56:17 00:38:00:10
As executives and as leaders
of organizations,

00:38:01:03 00:38:05:06
there are different groups
that are challenged right now

00:38:05:06 00:38:06:10
that need help.

00:38:07:07 00:38:09:25
And they're some really large challenges,

00:38:09:25 00:38:13:06
but think about a challenge like this

00:38:13:06 00:38:16:19
that we would never,
ever, ever know about.

00:38:17:08 00:38:19:28
But does it affect their productivity?

00:38:19:28 00:38:21:09
Yes.
- Absolutely, yes.

00:38:21:09 00:38:25:13
Does it affect the way
that they interact with their peers?

00:38:25:13 00:38:26:20
Yes.

00:38:26:20 00:38:28:22
We really need to stop,

00:38:29:22 00:38:31:29
understand, listen,

00:38:31:29 00:38:35:10
about the experiences
for all of the communities

00:38:35:10 00:38:38:06
that are under siege
and under challenge right now.

00:38:39:19 00:38:41:11
Really well said.
Thank you both,

00:38:41:11 00:38:42:19
from the bottom of our heart,

00:38:42:19 00:38:45:09
the entire Media Solutions department
thanks you both.

00:38:45:09 00:38:47:02
Thank you, it was fun.
- You're welcome, yeah.

00:38:47:02 00:38:48:12
Thank you, sir.

00:38:49:09 00:38:50:18
Any time, my friend.